Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:45 pm

Matt wrote:

Don't know if this has been answered but yes, the Lambs Club still survives. It is at the Dennison Ohio Railroad Museum.
Source-http://dennisondepot.org/new_website/equipment/

Thanks, Matt, for the info!

441. Lambs Club (Lot #6289, Plan #3992, 1929, plr [13]-buf-din [12]-lng [16], PRR)--sold to PRR #7007 (1945) to MofW #492061 (1956) sold to Midwest RY Historical Foundation (MRHF) (unknown date) resold to Dennison Railroad Depot Museum, Dennison, OH (unknown date)

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:27 am

On Thursday, November 15th, 2018, 9th Post on Page #36, Rainier Rails wrote:

On Wednesday, January 31st, 2018, 10th Post on Page #35, VinylRailfan wrote:

-Unknown Parlor-Obs. (Ameristar Casino, Kansas City) (Wood)

Hmm, did a quick search and couldn't find anything. I haven't been assigning line item numbers to the several surviving all-wood or wood-and-steel-composite cars which have come up in this thread, but of course I'll make some inquiries as to what car this is.

On Saturday, November 17th, 2018, 1st Post on Page #37, VinylRailfan wrote:

Ted, if it is helpful, here is a link to a photo of this car.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/noodle-edge/4085196142/in/photostream/
And I stand corrected for calling it a Wood car as it certainly appears to be a steel car.

On Saturday, November 17th, 2018, 2nd Post on Page #37, Rainier Rails wrote:

Hmm...interesting...it could be an all-steel car or a wood car later rebuilt with steel sheathing. I see in the photo that they claim it was built in 1898, but I've learned to take claimed dates with a grain of salt until the history is confirmed (like when it's claimed a car was used by a specific President).

On Saturday, November 17th, 2018, 6th Post on Page #37, Dennis Storzek wrote:

Click forward about four photos. The raised panel interior, and the amount of carving, would seem to indicate a steel sheathed wood car. The wood interiors in steel cars were typically much plainer.

On Saturday, November 17th, 2018, 7th Post on Page #37, Rainier Rails wrote:

Oh yes, it would.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/noodle-edge/4085188356/

A delayed "update"; as posted in late November in the Pullman group by Nick Nichols and John Suscheck, this is a former Great Western business car, and I quote: "Interior gutted except kitchen and gaudy wood victorian interior installed"

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:57 am

On Friday, November 23rd, 2018, 14th Post on Page #37, Rainier Rails wrote:

Car Identified:

On Tuesday, August 26th, 2014, 13th Post on Page #21, Rainier Rails wrote:

Here's an interesting car:

Thread from February 2003: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5109

This was among the MILW and SOO equipment privately owned in Rockford, IL, at least some of which ended up being moved to the Colfax RR Museum.

Two possibilities for how this car was modified:

As posted in that thread by Peter Nicholson:

Peter Nicholson wrote:

I have been in the car - it is a kitbashed Pullman converted to MofW service with a new end fabricated at Milwaukee Shops using the 1934-pattern streamlined coach design.

As posted in that thread by Thomas Manz:

Thomas Manz wrote:

This appears to be most of an old 10-1-(-) sleeping car, and a short piece of a lightweight, open-platform branch line combine. The combos were built at the Milwaukee shops (in Milwaukee) in the mid-1930s. This bizarre mating must have been done in the 50s/60s, when combines for mixed trains were no longer in demand.

Well, using the 10-1-x configuration noted, here's what Tom Madden's CCR database tells us:

The Milwaukee Road acquired at the 12/31/1948 Pullman divestiture a total of 14 sleepers of the 10S-1DR-1C configuration (all from Lot #6043, to Plan #3973C, and all painted "MILW Std.").

Just for reference, there were a total of 30 10-1-1 sleepers built in Lot #6043, all originally for service on the Milwaukee Road; 14 of the other 16 cars were sold to: ACL (1), C&O (2), ERIE (5), NYC (4), and UP (2). The 2 remaining cars remained in Pullman ownership until listed as sold to scrap dealers.

As for the 14 cars acquired by MILW, most did not last long in Pullman lease, with 12 withdrawn between January and April 1949. The 2 remaining cars, Big Rock and Des Moines, were also withdrawn at that time, but re-entered Pullman lease in April 1955, withdrawn again in May 1956, and the Big Rock was again in Pullman lease from September 1956 to September 1958.

What I don't have is more info on the disposition of Milwaukee's heavyweight cars, including sleepers, so pinning down the history of this car shall remain open ended.

Also, was this car among the Rockville equipment acquired by Colfax, or was it ultimately scrapped?

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any photos of the car in question.

On Wednesday, February 25th, 2015, 9th Post on Page #29, Rainier Rails wrote:

Mystery Cars:

396. MILW baggage-express #2051 is owned by the Milwaukee Road Heritage Center in Montevideo, MN. Does anybody know what sleeper the #2051 was converted from? Thanks in advance!

Pictures:

As MofW #958001 in UP Armour Yellow, hallway side: http://www.montevideomrhc.org/MountRushmoreandExpress/slides/Baggage%202.JPG

As MofW #958001 in UP Armour Yellow, bedroom side: http://www.montevideomrhc.org/MountRushmoreandExpress/slides/Baggage%2002.JPG

Returned to MILW Maroon & Orange, June 6th, 2009 (hallway side): http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1631823 (Matt Petersen photo)

I posted regarding the first car, the ex-10-1-1 in Rockford, in the "Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States" group on Facebook, and the former Pullman ID remains unknown, just that in MofW service it was #X-595, as posted by Justin Nelson. But, then I thought to ask about the second car, and Justin replied that records show the #958001 was modified from baggage car #1915. Wayner lists that the #1915 was rebuilt from:

396. Mississippi (Lot #6043, Plan #3973/C, 1927, 10S-1DR-1C, MILW)--sold to MILW (1948) rebuilt to baggage car #1915 (c. 1949) possibly to baggage-express #2051 (unknown date) to MofW #958001 (unknown date) acquired by the Milwaukee Road Heritage Center, Montevideo, MN (unknown date)

Justin further did say in regards to the first car that:

Justin Nelson wrote:

When the rest of the equipment was moved out, that car was scrapped. This info came from the owner. The 3 lightweight cars that were in Rockford with x-595 survived. One went to Colfax, WI and the other two were moved to the owners property outside Rockford.

I recently acquired a slide of the MILW #X-595. Looks like the only thing replaced was the roof on about one quarter of the car; the rest, including trucks, windows, sheathing, and vestibule steps, were left as-is.

Attachment:

S3-165RB.jpg [ 121.07 KiB | Viewed 12069 times ]

VinylRailfan · **Posted:** Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:47 pm

A car has popped up for sale on Ozark Mountain, according to the listing its a car named "Perry". The photo shows it as AT&SF MOW sleeper #199813 (I think). So presumably another, much modified, 12-1 car still exists.

NS6770fan · **Joined:** Sat May 19, 2018 10:03 am **Posts:** 194

I don’t know if this one has popped up yet, but what about the Pullman sleeper that Rapido Trains is restoring? I don’t know much about Pullman cars, but is that car a heavyweight? Also I believe that the RRMPA has a Pullman heavyweight.

Brian Norden · **Posted:** Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:01 pm

NS6770fan wrote:

I don’t know if this one has popped up yet, but what about the Pullman sleeper that Rapido Trains is restoring? I don’t know much about Pullman cars, but is that car a heavyweight? Also I believe that the RRMPA has a Pullman heavyweight.

The car that Rapido Trains has preserved is not a heavyweight. It is the former Canadian National/Via sleeping car "Edmundston" built by Pullman in 1954. It contains 4 Sections, 8 Duplex Roomettes, and 4 Double Bedrooms.
See this webpage: Saving VIA ‘E’ Sleeper 1115 Edmundston

The firm also has an RDC-1 and a "new look" GM city bus.

StLSW · **Joined:** Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:56 pm **Posts:** 39

I don't see it in this thread, may have missed it, however, Sean Reed over at the St.Louis Southwestern facebook group confirms that this car still exists:

Lot 4816 Plan 3521 Mt. Sheridan which went to the Cotton Belt (SSW). It was then an instruction car, then went the Spaghetti Warehouse in Little Rock, then went to the White River Scenic, and is now at the Durbin & Greenbrier Valley as car WVC 120.

Bradley Linda
Waco, TX

Joshua K. Blay · **Posted:** Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:44 pm

"Also I believe that the RRMPA has a Pullman heavyweight."

That's the Lotos Club which is already covered on this thread.

Joshua

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:46 am

On Tuesday, January 7th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #6, Rainier Rails wrote:

Here's two other mystery cars:

The West Virginia Central owns a Plan #3521 10S-lng-obs (as #120) whose identity remains unknown. The WVC website says it was formerly owned by the White River Scenic as #1, which was formerly SP business car #110 Los Angeles. This is not the case, as this linked thread discusses: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31717

On Monday, January 27th, 2014, 15th Post on Page #13, Rainier Rails wrote:

Mystery Cars:

Also on page #6:

288. The West Virginia Central owns a Plan #3521 10S-lng-obs (as #120) whose identity remains unknown. The WVC website says it was formerly owned by the White River Scenic (WRSR), which was formerly SP business car #110 Los Angeles. This is not the case, as this linked thread discusses: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31717. Does anyone know the identity of this car??

On Thursday, January 17th, 2018, 7th Post on Page #38, StLSW wrote:

I don't see it in this thread, may have missed it, however, Sean Reed over at the St.Louis Southwestern facebook group confirms that this car still exists:

Lot 4816 Plan 3521 Mt. Sheridan which went to the Cotton Belt (SSW). It was then an instruction car, then went the Spaghetti Warehouse in Little Rock, then went to the White River Scenic, and is now at the Durbin & Greenbrier Valley as car WVC 120.

Ah ha, another mystery solved!

288. Mt. Sheridan (Lot #4816, Plan #3521, 1924, 10S-lng-obs)--sold to SSW (1948) to instruction car #99301 (1952) to Spaghetti Warehouse (Little Rock) (unknown date) to White River Scenic (unknown date) to Durbin & Greenbrier Valley-West Virginia Central (WVC) #120 (unknown date)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:17 am

On Thursday, January 14th, 2016, 5th Post on Page #32, Rainier Rails wrote:

Another Survivor:

417. AT&SF MofW bunk car #196813, currently owned by the Timber Heritage Association of Eureka, CA. A video of this car turned up in my YouTube subscription feed on Monday evening, showing the car being moved from storage in Windsor to storage in Schellville, with the cooperation of the Northwestern Pacific (the NWP's President is a THA member). The car had been stored in Windsor in circa 1999-2000 by Wes & Cindy Vail.

The #196813 appears to be a 12S-1DR car, and I did a quick run-through of Wayner's heavyweight Pullman book, but the car's current number didn't turn up; there was 1 car acquired by AT&SF which didn't have a MofW number listed (which would've been applied at acquisition), and several cars which were initially placed in the #11xx-series for use as coaches, and many of these were later transferred to the MofW department, but the MofW numbers for these cars are not included. Does anyone know which car this is? Thanks in advance!

Here's a link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-j8muJWrUA

On Thursday, January 14th, 2016, 6th Post on Page #32, jmlaboda wrote:

The car is either a Plan 2410D or 2410E so that should narrow things down a bit, though maybe not that well. The single windows in the aisle area and the arched ends at the top does help just a little to narrow down what to look for.

Quote:

...there was 1 car acquired by AT&SF which didn't have a MofW number listed (which would've been applied at acquisition),...

That is not necessarily true. Depending on the condition of the car and the needs of the railroad it was not unusual for some cars to have sat for several years while the railroad decided what to do with them, be it rebuilt for use, used in MofW service or stripped of parts and scrapped.

On Thursday, January 14th, 2016, 7th Post on Page #32, jmlaboda wrote:

Doing a quick search of Tom Madden's Pullman Car Construction Records I was able to turn up just one Pullman Plan 2410D car and no Plan 2410E cars, a car formerly named Burdette, which was sold to the ATSF in June of '56. According to Wayner's book the car was numbered 198652 which places the car close to the number of the car shown in the video.

The car's lack of AC ducts is a good indication that it served as a Tourist sleeper under Pullman's ownership, carrying the TC number 2602 before being sold to the Santa Fe. The question I now have is how accurate is Wayner's book??? Might this have actually been what the car was numbered??? We may never know for sure...

(Might there be a book on ATSF Maintenance of Way equipment which might speak more clearly to what various cars' numbers and histories might be???)

On Wednesday, January 16th, 2019, 4th Post on Page #38, VinylRailfan wrote:

A car has popped up for sale on Ozark Mountain, according to the listing its a car named "Perry". The photo shows it as AT&SF MOW sleeper #199813 (I think). So presumably another, much modified, 12-1 car still exists.

Another mystery solved.

417. Perry (Lot #4485, Plan #2410F, 1917/40, 13S, ex-12S-1DR)--Tourist #1614--sold to AT&SF as MofW #196432 (1953) to #196813 (unknown date) acquired by Wes & Cindy Vail (unknown date) stored by the Vails at the Shiloh Business Center in Windsor, CA (circa 1999-2000) to Timber Heritage Association (Eureka, CA) (unknown date) moved from Windsor to storage in Schellville, CA (12/1/2015) listed for sale (2019)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:29 am

On Wednesday, January 22nd, 2014, 13th Post on Page #12, Rainier Rails wrote:

273. SCL #765310--according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #3585 8S-1DR-2C--SCL to CSX to Gold Coast RR Mus--does anybody know the history of this car??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3489848 (Bill Fricker photo), and here: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2757/4327929736_4056a491ed_o.jpg (Earl C. Leatherberry photo) (click once to enlarge)

274. SCL #765348--according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a 10S-1DR-2C--SCL to CSX to Gold Coast RR Mus--does anybody know the history of this car??--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1581457 (Eric Kreszl photo), and here: http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4013/4327939546_827a3e60f8_o.jpg (Earl C. Leatherberry photo) (click once to enlarge)

On Wednesday, January 22nd, 2014, 14th Post on Page #12, jmlaboda wrote:

Quote:

273. SCL #765310--according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a Plan #3585 8S-1DR-2C...

Oops... my bad... it should be a 10 Sectiion - 1 Drawing Room - 2 Comp car.

Quote:

274. SCL #765348--according to Jerry LaBoda's website, this is a 10S-1DR-2C...

As for these cars' histories they are either SAL 1251 Lake Alexander or 1250 Lake Borgne, the other two cars acquired from Pullman are listed as scrapped.

On Wednesday, January 22nd, 2014, 15th Post on Page #12, Rainier Rails wrote:

Thanks, Jerry, for the info on Bonsall, Lake Alexander, and Lake Borgne!

Question regarding Plan #3585 cars that went to ACL and SAL at the 12/31/1948 divestiture:

SAL acquired Lake Alexander, Lake Borgne, and Lake Chicot. ACL acquired Lake Cone (renamed Puerto Rico in 1938), Lake Elmo, Lake Louise, Lake Pelican, and Lake Winnebago.

Which two cars are shown in the records as being scrapped, and what were the dispositions of the other four?

Thanks in advance.

On Wednesday, January 22nd, 2014, 1st Post on Page #13, jmlaboda wrote:

Lake Alexander was removed from Pullman lease in January 1963 while Lake Borgne remained in Pullman lease until November 1964. No further disposition is mentioned, which is why I believe that these were the two cars that saw use in MofW service.

Lake Minnetonka was wrecked on the Seaboard in December 1953 while Lake Chicot remained in Pullman lease until February 1965, after which the car is listed as being scrapped.

Quote:

ACL acquired Puerto Rico, Lake Elmo, Lake Louise, Lake Pelican, and Lake Winnebago.

I didn't think about the ACL cars. This is what is listed in the book...

Lake Elmo was withdrawn from Pullman lease in November 1964 and scrapped, Lake Louise was withdrawn in August 1956 and scrapped, Lake Pelican became ACL coach 900 sometime after its withdrawl from Pullman lease in December 1959 (no further disposition info), Lake Winnebago was withdrawn in May 1960 and scrapped, and Puerto Rico was withdrawn in July 1960 and scrapped.

As discussed in the "Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States" group on Facebook, these 2 cars are not the Plan #3585A 10S-1DR-2C sleepers Lake Alexander (Lot #4817, 1924, North Coast Limited, to SAL #1251) and Lake Borgne (Lot #4996, 1926, Sunset Limited, to SAL #1250), but rather are:

273. Cameron Pass (Lot #6334, Plan #3979A, 1930, 8S-1DR-2C, C&NW)--sold to ACL (1948) to MofW #65310 (1962) to SCL #765310 to SBD to CSX to Gold Coast RR Museum (circa 1987)

274. Vassar College (Lot #4527, Plan #4042, 1917/34, 10S-2DB-1C, ex-Plan #2585D 10S-1DR-2C Moffett, UP, rebuilt for Havana Special)--sold to ACL (1948) to MofW #65348 (1960) to SCL #765348 to SBD to CSX to Gold Coast RR Museum (circa 1987)

The thread in the FB group also brought up that this donation/acquisition from CSX also included a 3rd unidentified ex-Pullman from the MofW department, so:

442. Unknown Pullman in MofW service as a "pie car" to CSX to Gold Coast RR Museum (circa 1987), used as a party car

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:12 am

Not surviving cars, but worth noting for the dispositions:

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,4668034

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,4712861

Beacon Hill (Lot #6035, Plan #3961A/D/F, 1927, plr [16]-buf-lng obs [16], ex-Florence Nightingale, B&A/20th Century Limited)--sold to PRR #7031 (1945) to buffet-bar (club) #1118 (1956) to "The Rail" ice cream parlor (Hudson, OH) (unknown date) scrapped in late 70's or early 80's.

Copps Hill (Lot #4910, Plan #3961/G, 1925, plr [16]-buf-lng obs [16], ex-Princess Adelaide, WAB/Banner Limited)--sold to PRR #7032 (1945) to buffet-bar (club) #1119 (1956) to "The Rail" ice cream parlor (Hudson, OH) (unknown date) scrapped in late 70's or early 80's.

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:23 am

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #4, Rainier Rails wrote:

136. Palm Beach (Lot #4422, Plan #2502B, 1916, 5BD pvt. car, TCRY)--sold to TCRY #102 (1942) to Nashville Chapter NRHS (1968) to TCRM (1993)--see here: http://www.tcry.org/palm_bch.htm

Was reported that this car was scrapped last year.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:09 am

On Wednesday, September 10th, 2014, 3rd Post on Page #23, Rainier Rails wrote:

354. James Gadsden (Lot #4899, Plan #3584A, 1925, 10S-2DR, ex-Edmund W. Pettus)--sold to GS&F #6201 (1948) converted to baggage-express #6459 (when??) sold to John Birmingham-Boulder Scientific (when??)

It was also reported that this car was scrapped, in 2017.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:10 am

Also not a surviving car, but just cross-referencing it here.

Mt. Ouray (Lot #4998, Plan #3521A, 1926, 10S-lng-obs)--sold to CofG (1948) to MofW #32810 (1950) to private owner, St. Louis (unknown date) to Bill Hale (unknown date) to Waccamaw Coast Line, Myrtle Beach, SC (unknown date) to the Station at Cedar Yard, Charlotte, NC (unknown date) car like most at Cedar Yard was later scrapped (unknown date)

There have been several threads that have mentioned this car, and also mentioned was another car, a "heavyweight observation" (perhaps another Plan #2521/#3521 car?) that was once owned by Bill Hale and was later resold to Shortline Enterprises; that mystery car had formerly been located in Mobile, AL. Anyone have further info on this other car? Thanks in advance.

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21323

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23045

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23073

http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32126

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars

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