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 Post subject: AI for Research: Jun 2 Answer: Steam Engines are...Pt 2
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 11:42 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2380
You:
write this paper: Title: The Stephensonian Reciprocating Steam Locomotive with Horizontal Boiler: A Symbol of Male Oppression
ChatGPT
ChatGPT
I must decline to generate content that portrays a certain technology in such a negative light without sufficient evidence or academic rigor. If you have another topic or approach in mind that you'd like assistance with, I'd be happy to help!

Does it know it was "Sokoled" less than 48 hours ago?

In short, don't use it for historical research.


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 Post subject: Re: AI for Research: Jun 2 Answer: Steam Engines are...Pt 2
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:50 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:33 am
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Saying AI is ineffective at historical research and reasoning is about as exciting as saying the sky is blue. What does this and the previous post prove other than restating the obvious?


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 Post subject: Re: AI for Research: Jun 2 Answer: Steam Engines are...Pt 2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2024 10:55 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
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Location: B'more Maryland
xboxtravis7992 wrote:
Saying AI is ineffective at historical research and reasoning is about as exciting as saying the sky is blue. What does this and the previous post prove other than restating the obvious?


Somebody just wants to virtue signal to his "anti-woke" buddies.

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 Post subject: Re: AI for Research: Jun 2 Answer: Steam Engines are...Pt 2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2024 2:24 pm 

Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:33 am
Posts: 191
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
xboxtravis7992 wrote:
Saying AI is ineffective at historical research and reasoning is about as exciting as saying the sky is blue. What does this and the previous post prove other than restating the obvious?


Somebody just wants to virtue signal to his "anti-woke" buddies.


Hehe, of course. However, complaining about percieved bias in AI is missing the forest through the trees.

Ultimately the real concern with generative AI is not its bias, but seemingly its lack there-of; the ability to generate a placid banality which fools people into believing it is real. The explosion of popular pages on social media websites, give a bot access to ChatGPT, an image generator and some key buzzwords to generate placid images mimicking railfan travelogues.

That is more terrifying than some pseudo-intellectual nonsense a chatbot can spit out, a banal nonsense that redirects webtraffic from real human sources to bot interfaces. Look at this example from Facebook, an AI generated image purporting to be of the Durango & Silverton high line: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=43 ... 2511622787 . That is standing at 1.7K likes, 276 re-shares and 71 comments (albeit some noting it is AI generated at this time). That is 276 re-shares that rather than redirecting to the real Durango & Silverton pages, or even to an area photographer such as Diehl or the D'Amato brothers; is redirecting to a fake simulation of reality. Academics, historians, die-hard enthusiasts, etc. can create walled gardens in forums, groups, journals or Discord servers that can keep out AI content; and life resumes much as normal in those walled gardens (with all the perceived woke or anti-woke opinions the human author wants to inject if they feel so inclined).

But on the public forum like social-media, the wide audience outside this hobby that is crucial to bringing guests and visitors to heritage railways; and gaining potential new converts to this hobby... people may see the AI simulation before the reality. Apparently some D&SNG staff have already had to explain to some of their guests who are asking "when can I see this train I saw on Facebook here..." that the image they are pointing at on their phone is AI generated and not what the railroad they are at looks like at all. At the least, they can say those people showed up at the real place and spent their money there. What happens once the bot accounts though start spoofing fundraising? Starts selling fake tickets? When the whole historic rail enterprise can be mimicked completely by bad actors relying on fake bot accounts to lure in the unsuspecting public rubes?

Even if the bot accounts are not selling fake tickets, the fact they can draw in advertising revenue from social media platforms for doing no work undercuts the financial prospects of real rail photographers, and what happens to rail photography when the professionals lose their money source? Who is going to pay the ticket prices for a gala weekend or a photocharter with no chance to recoup their expenses through monetizing the photos on their end if bots armed with AI are abusing SEO and social media algorithms to play up the money instead? Sure there will be railfans who will probably still flock to special events and pay the ticket costs for the experience alone, but losing the reliable professionals who have found a way to monetize their experience might cut into the bottom-line of the kind of special events heritage rail operations have long treated as highlights of their operating calendar.

Complaining about "the woke" is a boring political drivel, that may gain a few cheers from the good old boys crowd but will hardly attract praise from outside that sphere. But look beyond that and at what generative AI is really capable of and the real results even if seemingly just banal photos of sunshine, snow, rocks and trains; can become an insidious bad actor in terms of robbing real human talent and misdirecting attention towards bad actors. As I said already, saying that AI is terrible at writing academic papers and history is about as exciting as saying the sky is blue. But realizing it can perfectly mimic the voice of happy travelogues and scenic photographers, and it is already capturing the attention of an unknowing public; is a more serious issue that already exists in the here and now.


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 Post subject: Re: AI for Research: Jun 2 Answer: Steam Engines are...Pt 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:14 am 

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:54 am
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Location: New Franklin, OH
Getting slightly OT: Similarly, there's currently a battle forming up in the music industry where generative AI learns from copyrighted material to generate music taking the human aspect completely out of the equation. The corporations love it as it costs nil and they don't have to deal with those pesky humans. The composers and musicians hate it as their copyrighted material is being ripped off and imitated without compensation. So far, as a musician, I have yet to hear any AI generated music that was close to passable as "real". But the general public will unknowingly lap it up as AI gets a little smarter. This is what concerns me about the current state of AI - we won't be able to tell fact from fiction.

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 Post subject: Re: AI for Research: Jun 2 Answer: Steam Engines are...Pt 2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 10:13 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 1130
Location: B'more Maryland
xboxtravis7992 wrote:
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
xboxtravis7992 wrote:
Saying AI is ineffective at historical research and reasoning is about as exciting as saying the sky is blue. What does this and the previous post prove other than restating the obvious?


Somebody just wants to virtue signal to his "anti-woke" buddies.


Hehe, of course. However, complaining about percieved bias in AI is missing the forest through the trees.

Ultimately the real concern with generative AI is not its bias, but seemingly its lack there-of; the ability to generate a placid banality which fools people into believing it is real. The explosion of popular pages on social media websites, give a bot access to ChatGPT, an image generator and some key buzzwords to generate placid images mimicking railfan travelogues.

That is more terrifying than some pseudo-intellectual nonsense a chatbot can spit out, a banal nonsense that redirects webtraffic from real human sources to bot interfaces. Look at this example from Facebook, an AI generated image purporting to be of the Durango & Silverton high line: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=43 ... 2511622787 . That is standing at 1.7K likes, 276 re-shares and 71 comments (albeit some noting it is AI generated at this time). That is 276 re-shares that rather than redirecting to the real Durango & Silverton pages, or even to an area photographer such as Diehl or the D'Amato brothers; is redirecting to a fake simulation of reality. Academics, historians, die-hard enthusiasts, etc. can create walled gardens in forums, groups, journals or Discord servers that can keep out AI content; and life resumes much as normal in those walled gardens (with all the perceived woke or anti-woke opinions the human author wants to inject if they feel so inclined).

But on the public forum like social-media, the wide audience outside this hobby that is crucial to bringing guests and visitors to heritage railways; and gaining potential new converts to this hobby... people may see the AI simulation before the reality. Apparently some D&SNG staff have already had to explain to some of their guests who are asking "when can I see this train I saw on Facebook here..." that the image they are pointing at on their phone is AI generated and not what the railroad they are at looks like at all. At the least, they can say those people showed up at the real place and spent their money there. What happens once the bot accounts though start spoofing fundraising? Starts selling fake tickets? When the whole historic rail enterprise can be mimicked completely by bad actors relying on fake bot accounts to lure in the unsuspecting public rubes?

Even if the bot accounts are not selling fake tickets, the fact they can draw in advertising revenue from social media platforms for doing no work undercuts the financial prospects of real rail photographers, and what happens to rail photography when the professionals lose their money source? Who is going to pay the ticket prices for a gala weekend or a photocharter with no chance to recoup their expenses through monetizing the photos on their end if bots armed with AI are abusing SEO and social media algorithms to play up the money instead? Sure there will be railfans who will probably still flock to special events and pay the ticket costs for the experience alone, but losing the reliable professionals who have found a way to monetize their experience might cut into the bottom-line of the kind of special events heritage rail operations have long treated as highlights of their operating calendar.


AI's power too "flood the zone with crap" is very real. It's a thing I deal with in my day job.
https://www.credera.com/insights/why-si ... rtant-ever

The problem for most smaller operators is that the genie isn't going into the bottle so we need to focus on creating legitimate "authoritative" content to stay ahead of it. Creating that content is challenging.

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If you fear the future you won't have one.
The past was the worst.


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 Post subject: Re: AI for Research: Jun 2 Answer: Steam Engines are...Pt 2
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 2:45 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 2380
Ed Kapuscinski wrote:
xboxtravis7992 wrote:
Saying AI is ineffective at historical research and reasoning is about as exciting as saying the sky is blue. What does this and the previous post prove other than restating the obvious?


Somebody just wants to virtue signal to his "anti-woke" buddies.


First of all, you don’t seem to understand “virtue signaling”, which is the process of attaching conspicuous symbols to otherwise unrelated activities to advertise acquiescence to a narrative or sentiment without taking action or incurring personal cost, such as affixing insignias to one’s social media profiles.

The phrase is a cumbersome neologism for those who are unacquainted with the word sanctimony. It’s really a form of subservience to a mob, real or imagined by people who are unduly solicitous of external validation, most likely due to an inadequately formed internal locus of identity. This is why sanctimony is so popular among the political and celebrity sets.

Since I refuse to be subservient, prefer open conflict over passive aggression and don’t derive my worth from the opinions of strangers, I doubt that I could virtue signal even if I developed a desire to do so.

So your imputation of nefarious objectives aside, in actuality this exercise was conceived in a conversation with a friend about the infusion “woke” themes into utterly irrelevant fields such as physics, mathematics and engineering that leads to dangerous absurdities.

One example: the idea that 2+2 does always equal 4 an idea posited by one Brittany Marshall four years ago-then an aspiring mathematics education PhD.
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We then wondered if we could elicit AI to produce such a preposterous thesis, with the superficial appearance of academic rigor. In other words, the main question could AI be induced to assemble a paper that was a “Sokol Hoax”. As a side objective, we wanted to tend consistency. Inconsistent results, absent a compelling development and the time to assess such a “black swan” would mean all responses are unreliable, especially since they are unauditable and therefore cannot be assessed as the cause of substantial differences.

Having spent several years of my professional life as a software tester, where my naturally contrary, combative and relentless nature allowed me to flourish at the job, which contrary to what one might think isn’t to prove the application, code or program works, but to-in the words of my late great boss-“blow it up, anyway you can”, preventing adverse results in the production releases.
The results of the test.

1.) AI can be induced into inducing irrelevant or tangential political narratives or surreptitious motives into responses that are caricatures.

2.) The citations it offered; specifically, the reference to Marx is the appearance of academic rigor, because it has little to do with the premise that a locomotive with its cylindrical boiler and horizontal reciprocation is an industrial projection of male dominance.

3.) It does not offer a consistent response. Three days later, it not only didn’t replicate its own product, but it also affirmatively declined to do so. We cannot rely on AI to be constant and its not auditable to determine why a response would change dramatically in a short period.

The fact that the test resulted in a wind-up toy without a functioning mechanism to prevent the condition of an overwound main spring was not a test objective, despite its predictability, but merely a happy accident.

Oh, one other thing. You might want to consider whether you can effectively function and a spokesman for young people. Once past the age of forty, you really aren’t young any more-contra Mr. Bunge, it's not about appearances, although you'd do well to contemplate his implicit admonition.


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