I've been asked by a institution if there are any preservation training programs in existence. Would people be interested in such a program? In other words, is there a place where one can go and learn the various aspects of railcar preservation? If not, are there any people out there who you would suggest as trainers for a group interested in their knowledge?

The institution would be interested in hosting such training but is trying to figure out the possible market and how to arrange such a program.

Your remarks are most welcome.

Michael Seitz

Missoula MT

mikefrommontana@juno.com

In the wooden car area, Glenn Guerra and Vance Dickenson are excellent craftsmen. Vance is working at CSRM, don't know about Glenn. Reach Vance through Kyle Williams Wyatt at CSRM. They may be able to take on an intern.

Metal cars, I always ask Steve Zuiderveen who is doing what. Ozark Mountain and the St Louis shops would be other good sources.

Closer to home (for you) might talk to Andrew Dahm at Colorado RR Musuem, or Paul Dalleska at Stuhr Museum in Nebraska who has many cars in process.

Steamtown has great facilities - maybe somebody from there can let you know if there are opportunities.

Best wishes and hope you find it a lifes work.

Dave

Michael:
I would suggest you pick up a copy of Wooden Boat magazine. Try to get some back issues, one on the Schooner Sultana stood out about 6 months ago. Those guys (wooden boat people)know how to make things happen, to get the money, to train people, to bring in community, etc. I simply do not see where in rail preservation anyone has been as consistently good at it as the wooden boat folks. I am trying to use the wooden boat model as I run NJMT. Also look at all the wooden boat building schools and how they bring the families into it.

At Pine Creek we are focusing on education and family. This has been the basis of an amazing turn around in interest in working in the shop and in the number of people volunteering as a whole. I think that shows there is a market

J.R.

> I've been asked by a institution if there
> are any preservation training programs in
> existence. Would people be interested in
> such a program? In other words, is there a
> place where one can go and learn the various
> aspects of railcar preservation? If not, are
> there any people out there who you would
> suggest as trainers for a group interested
> in their knowledge?

> The institution would be interested in
> hosting such training but is trying to
> figure out the possible market and how to
> arrange such a program.

> Your remarks are most welcome.

> Michael Seitz

> Missoula MT


http://www.njmt.org
jrmay@njmt.org

> I would suggest you pick up a copy of Wooden
> Boat magazine. Try to get some back issues,
> one on the Schooner Sultana stood out about
> 6 months ago. Those guys (wooden boat
> people)know how to make things happen, to
> get the money, to train people, to bring in
> community, etc. I simply do not see where in
> rail preservation anyone has been as
> consistently good at it as the wooden boat
> folks.

There are a number of similarities between boats, ships, historic buildings and railway preservation. These all involve large, out-door objects. The thoughts about restoration and reuse are often similar. Look into the National Trust for information about buildings, etc. Also I believe the NPS has had publications about building and ship preservation.

The old railway preservation symposiums that were put on at California State Railroad Museums were wonderful to get the mind thinking about restoration and presentation.

Brian Norden


bnorden49@earthlink.net

I gotta ask ... what phase of preservation ?
ge13031 is an easy project ... documentation of history was handed to me along with necessary factory handbooks to be able to get a good idea of the project.
LSE167 is much more involved, spending 26 years as a cottage, stripped of everything that involved operation. Thanks to a number of folks from across the country with industry records we are getting some idea of the original equipment (unobtainable) and local records to get some idea of the when and where of the changes. Thanks to the folks with interest out there and the presence of the internet, this "paper" phase of preservation has been speeded up. This is very important as we are looking at a car body with all sorts of holes, comparing these holes with equipment drawings and pictures and eureka "thats what went there". In years past we talked to folks that maintained and operated the equipment, this is another phase of preservation. There is something very special when a former motorman takes you on a virtual trip from Cleveland to Detroit describing the equipment and the line fifty years after the fact. The down and dirty, nuts and bolts part of preservation is a series of tasks that can be done with dedicated folks that are not necessarily "train" trained. Welding, stripping, electrical, painting, woodworking, fabrication are all skills that work across subjects. Heavy lifting is fairly unique and one of the more hazardous parts of this business, this definitely takes skill and experience but is necessary in preservation. Maintenance of ancient equipment is a study in itself ...now that you have it together, how do you keep it together ? Operation is a whole nuther ball game ... and not for the faint hearted. And the list goes on, with the question remaining at the end, what part/s of preservation do you want to become part of ?


lamontdc@adelphia.net

Not everyone knows, but Wooden Boat magazine was the inspiration for the late Locomotive & Railway Preservation. Mark Smith's son was an avid boatbuilder, and discussions between WB's owner and Mark led to his development of a similar quality magazine for the rail preservaton field. Wooden Boat is still in publication, but unfortunately, L&RP is not.

> Michael:
> I would suggest you pick up a copy of Wooden
> Boat magazine. Try to get some back issues,
> one on the Schooner Sultana stood out about
> 6 months ago. Those guys (wooden boat
> people)know how to make things happen, to
> get the money, to train people, to bring in
> community, etc. I simply do not see where in
> rail preservation anyone has been as
> consistently good at it as the wooden boat
> folks. I am trying to use the wooden boat
> model as I run NJMT. Also look at all the
> wooden boat building schools and how they
> bring the families into it.

> At Pine Creek we are focusing on education
> and family. This has been the basis of an
> amazing turn around in interest in working
> in the shop and in the number of people
> volunteering as a whole. I think that shows
> there is a market

> J.R.


ryarger@rypn.org

As a subscriber to Wooden Boat for years I wonder, "How do the wooden boat people do it? After all not all of us grew up by the ocean. Yet, they find the money to preserve and build replicas to the tune of 100's of thousands of dollars. The rail preservation field is really missing the boat on this.

Nevada Northern Railway Museum
bassett@elko.net

> As a subscriber to Wooden Boat for years I
> wonder, "How do the wooden boat people
> do it? After all not all of us grew up by
> the ocean. Yet, they find the money to
> preserve and build replicas to the tune of
> 100's of thousands of dollars. The rail
> preservation field is really missing the
> boat on this.

Well, not to be a cynic, but maritime museums have a genius for locating themselves in the heart of well-to-do coastline recretational boating and leasure areas. Many times they sit in the middle of a fair amount of money, and they work hard to connect with that money by being good regional citizens and attractive members of the community.

Also there is a historic general continuity between money and boats--it's been a classic form of American conspicuous consumption since the Vanderbilts' day. And a recreational boater (especially a sailor) is only inches away from being a wooden boat project donor. A wealthy Long Island day sailor is going to be a good donor candidate for Mystic Seaport, but not an obvious prospect to give to Danbury, Naugatuck, Branford, Warehouse Point, or our other Connecticut RR preservation sites, to take one hypothetical example.

Fortunately or unfortunately, our objects of love a scruffy, dirty, and distinctly and honorably blue-collar by comparison.

Tremont 100 celebration
eledbetter@rypn.org

> Well, not to be a cynic, but maritime
> museums have a genius for locating
> themselves in the heart of well-to-do
> coastline recretational boating and leasure
> areas. Many times they sit in the middle of
> a fair amount of money, and they work hard
> to connect with that money by being good
> regional citizens and attractive members of
> the community.

> Also there is a historic general continuity
> between money and boats--it's been a classic
> form of American conspicuous consumption
> since the Vanderbilts' day. And a
> recreational boater (especially a sailor) is
> only inches away from being a wooden boat
> project donor. A wealthy Long Island day
> sailor is going to be a good donor candidate
> for Mystic Seaport, but not an obvious
> prospect to give to Danbury, Naugatuck,
> Branford, Warehouse Point, or our other
> Connecticut RR preservation sites, to take
> one hypothetical example.

> Fortunately or unfortunately, our objects of
> love a scruffy, dirty, and distinctly and
> honorably blue-collar by comparison.

Erik-

While I respect your line of thinking, not all of us who are crazy enough to be involved in wood boats are rich, nor are we monacle wearing copies of Thurston Howell III. I am part owner in a 1934-Swedish built 30 square meter for example; and I can guarantee that my salary in no way, shape or form qualifies me as a Roosevelt, Kennedy, or Vanderbuilt. We who are in to wood boats love them for what they are; works of art that deserve preservation, and deserve to be sailed. It has been interesting to me that while I fell into this because of my love of sailing, its the zen-like experience of varnishing 88-feet of boat (she's 44 feet long) every year that is what really drives my soul. I truly believe man is meant to work with wood; and it has NOTHING (or very little, IMHO) to do with money.

I find parallels in those that own and restore old homes; like me, they are not SANE individuals to most normal-thinking people. They spend perfectly warm summer days tearing apart and rebuilding houses when others are at the beach. They spend countless hours with dental tools scraping bits of old (and usually poisonous lead-filled) paint from a single piece of molding. They look at a rotting, falling down porch and see beauty where others see a fire hazard and a blight to the neighborhood. Are we who restore and preserve what most people would relegate to the scrap yard (or the deep) any different?

There is one major difference in my mind that differentiates the species of boat/ auto/ home restorer from the locomotive or rolling stock-restorer; the other restorers have very little obstacles to deal with on where to operate/ live once their project is done. As we all know, insurance, unfriendly class one's, and the scale of the object which we restore dictate that they can only be operated in certain areas. Its NOT just a question of money; its a question of bureacracy. Rail restorers and those trying to save historic freighters or passenger boats have more in common in that veign, me-thinks. I can, with very little difficulty, operate my 44-footer just about anywhere where there is more than 8 feet of water; you just can't say the same for a park engine. There are goods reasons for this; an operating steam locomotive has a good deal more potential for killing you than a wood boat (but an idiot operating a wood boat has a great potential to kill too). There also aren't open rails for us like there are open highways for classic cars or open waterways for classic boats. Money interests know that, and its one of the main things which hinders our cause, IMHO.

Enough of my 50 cents,

TJ Gaffney

T.J. Gaffney

Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Wow-
I always thought SOMEONE at L&RP that had to be a wood boat lover. Now I know!

TJG

> Not everyone knows, but Wooden Boat magazine
> was the inspiration for the late Locomotive
> & Railway Preservation. Mark Smith's son
> was an avid boatbuilder, and discussions
> between WB's owner and Mark led to his
> development of a similar quality magazine
> for the rail preservaton field. Wooden Boat
> is still in publication, but unfortunately,
> L&RP is not.


Port Huron Museum
tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

T.J.;

I think you hit the nail on the head with your response, especially the last paragraph.

While there is a connection between wooden rolling stock and wooden boats; a more appropiate comparision would be between a railroad and a large vessel; perhaps a steamship like the S.S. United States.

In that vein, the keepers of these steamships and the like have the same trouble with funding as do most railroad museums. What's more, current (SOLAS?) regulations mean that once you restore a vessel to its original glory; you still have to spend millions more to bring it to the point where you can haul paying passengers. You then hope and pray that you can fill it with enough warm bodies to keep the whole operation going.

I believe the Delta Queen, a wonderful old paddle steamer, is having trouble "staying afloat" as I write this. I heard on another list that the "Artship" (former S.S. Golden Beaver) in Sacaramento will having likely have it's current tennants evicted, and be returned to the reserve in Suisun Bay. The few remaining operational ocean liners (such as the S.S. Norway ex S.S. France) face uncertain futures. I do know there are also a lot of old steamships both here and in the UK like the "United States" that are still around, but face very uncertain futures.

I have been thinking about those Maritime Reserves. Don't tell anyone, but I think they are the best thing going for preserving steamships. I read that a year or so ago, they stopped selling old ships for scrap to Pakistan and other overseas breakers because they do not take steps to protect their workers from asbestos.

However, with scrap down to pennies a pound, it is hardly worth the scrap value to break these old vessels up any more. So in the meantime, the government pays to keep them afloat in reasonable condition in hope some they may be needed one day, or find a museum that will take them; all paid for by the taxpayer.

Too bad we can't get the S.S. United States and all of our railroad musuems declared as "strategic reserves"; so the government will fund their upkeep. The Soviet Union was keeping thousands of steam locomotives maintained for just this reason for at least a decade.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> Erik-

> There is one major difference in my mind
> that differentiates the species of boat/
> auto/ home restorer from the locomotive or
> rolling stock-restorer; the other restorers
> have very little obstacles to deal with on
> where to operate/ live once their project is
> done. As we all know, insurance, unfriendly
> class one's, and the scale of the object
> which we restore dictate that they can only
> be operated in certain areas. Its NOT just a
> question of money; its a question of
> bureacracy. Rail restorers and those trying
> to save historic freighters or passenger
> boats have more in common in that veign,
> me-thinks. I can, with very little
> difficulty, operate my 44-footer just about
> anywhere where there is more than 8 feet of
> water; you just can't say the same for a
> park engine. There are goods reasons for
> this; an operating steam locomotive has a
> good deal more potential for killing you
> than a wood boat (but an idiot operating a
> wood boat has a great potential to kill
> too). There also aren't open rails for us
> like there are open highways for classic
> cars or open waterways for classic boats.
> Money interests know that, and its one of
> the main things which hinders our cause,
> IMHO.

> Enough of my 50 cents,

> TJ Gaffney


Surviving World Steam Project
james1@pernet.net

not
> all of us who are crazy enough to be
> involved in wood boats are rich, nor are we
> monacle wearing copies of Thurston Howell
> III.

No doubt, TJ, and no offense intended. I'm sure its a diverse and lively community. But I'd STILL rather be Mystic Seaport or Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum's development officer than CSRMF' or B&O Museum's.

Tremont 100 celebration
eledbetter@rypn.org