Having recently been involved, but no longer, with the Orlando & Mount Dora Railway operation, which employs the use of these LIRR cars, I can state without hesitation they are the WORST for use in excursion service. They have small windows and cramped seating arrangements. They may have been great for getting 100 sardines home from the big apple in 40 minutes, but I have witnessed how un-popular they can be with passengers looking for a pleasant excursion. I will say that they ride nice on Class 2 track but offer no historic value or charm, they are what they are....cheap sardine cans on wheels! It would take so much money to re-invent these cars with user friendly vestibules, water closets, seating, bigger windows, etc. As a matter of fact, if there are any operators out there that have some of these duds and would like to consider better, more tradition reversible-walk over seats, please email, my firm manufactures new/old style seats. Good luck to any unsuspecting patrons unfortunate to end up jammed in one of these cars for 2 or more hours.

edrailco@aol.com

Just to post some personal experience ...
Scene One:
The ambient is 92F on a typical August fair day. Thirty or Sixty folks climb on for a train ride, ages ranging from 6 weeks to 90 years and immediately enjoy the air conditioning, nobody is crowded into two coaches and they pick their seats with lots of room, they can spread out on the three seat side. About two miles into the trip the babies and other tired folks are nodding off, the rest are looking out the windows (yes there is some visibility). The rest of the gang is enjoying the latest wildflowers, wild life in the woods, and the snapping turtles in the river below the bridge. Five miles down to end of track and we start back the only complaints being that the ride is too short, we're having fun!
Scene two:
Halloween time ... temps can get chilly so the heat goes on. Generally the evening scheduled runs are sold out so the three coaches are full, the "sardines" are lots of kiddies from three to twelve with their parents all out to have a good time so it can get pretty raucous, but under control. Two miles down the line to the haunted trail, off the train to get the daylights scared out of you, back on the train to the station, again no complaints and a good time is had by all.
Scene three:
Weekend trips in the summer and fall, Generally light ridership spread out in two coaches going slow to enjoy the scenery and give the deer time to get off the tracks ... second coach is air conditioned, last coach usually runs with back door open for a great view of the line going by.

Please note, vestibules are NOT designed to ride in, side doors are full length and close and latch. Cross over plates are dangerous when train is moving ... with nobody hanging out the side and eveyone inside the car the conductors job is easier and safety is better.

After a large crowd of kids and the resultant mess and clutter, especially on a muddy day cleanup is a mop for the floor and a seat wipedown ... the interior is designed for easy cleanup ... no muddy footprints on the "plush".

Does a LIRR coach fit your operation? They do a pretty good job on ours!



lamontdc@adelphia.net

Given the right price, these cars can be economically used as the basis for many custom designed tourist railroad uses. Unlss yours is a commuter line, removing some of the seats is not a bad idea. I have seen every third row removed and the seating rearranged into facing sections. The windows can be enlarged as mentioned, or the car converted to open window with aluminum sliders as was done at Stone Mountain.

OTOH, if you want a ready to go car, there are far fewer options. I like the MARC cars but I don't know if any more are available. The Chicago double deckers are even more sardined than these, but furnish a powerful lot of seats in a single unit.

The cars at Royal Gorge are very comfortable and impressive but they are not for the average tourist line - long distance coaches with huge reclining seats and wide windows.

Still, my personal preferences are for the clerestory roofed Boonton cars and the Reading Bethlehem Battleships even with their somewhat tender draft gear pockets. They just look and feel like what railroad coaches need to be.

Dave

Good
> luck to any unsuspecting patrons unfortunate
> to end up jammed in one of these cars for 2
> or more hours.

In 1990 my partner's and mine company rebuilt two of these cars for the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad. We tore all of the small aluminum sash windows out, made the openings three inches taller, and replaced them with 3/8" FRA legal real glass. All four corners had the steel replaced where the sliding pocket doors has let the water set in the side sills and rot. The doors were converted to swinging instead of sliding. A simple stainless valence was installed to shade the flourescent lights. The floors were patched under the windows. Then new Manurop/NW Rail Electric air conditioning, simplified electrical lockers, and trainlines to accept 240 3 phase from a Stadco mounted on an adjacent car were installed. The seats were removed and replaced with salvaged reconditioned Coach and Car walkover seats from scrapped RDC cars. Parts of the project were finished by others when Allegheny County ran into some funding problems. The cars cost about $80,000 each to do

Yes, the project may be more money than some of you can raise. But now the WMSR has two high capacity cars that will work with a minimum of maintenance for the next fifteen-twenty years, and will haul 90 customers, instead of the 54 that some of the ex Southern steam train cars hauled. And those cars cost $40,000 plus at the auction at Birmingham, and there ain't no more available! Ditto the average ex Amtrak 46 seater that may only occaisionaly be available these days.

Mind you the $80,000 was a commercial deal. Incremental improvemtns in windows, for example, could be made for less than $20,000 with volunteer labor. The window openings were enlarged after the removal of the old aluminum frames in less than two days with the help of a jig and a plasma cutter. Real soon the midwest is going to be raining ex CNW gallery cars, and if some get scrapped, a cheap sorce of walkovers will be available. (Smart scrappers will take $20/seat rather than pay to landfill the upholstery)

Frankly the day of the $500 ex New Jersey commuter coach is long gone. So is the day of using that car up and buying another. Carbon steel cars such as LIRR stock can be rehabilitated with less hi-tech than aluminum Comet cars or stainless steel transit equipment.

Steve Zuiderveen


SZuidervee@aol.com

you say the Long Island Railroad Pullmans hold no historical value? I have to disagree I am a memeber of the Railroad Museum of Long Island and we have two f such cars in our collection which were both used in the 50's in the retiring ceramony of steam on Long Island. Also these coachs were built for one of the first Railroads in the United States and second of all the Oldest operating one in the USA. Our goal is to restore these coachs inside and out to thier original 1950's look . These cars are as important as lets say a coach from the Empire Builder in historical value they lasted longer then most coachs under on charcter yes they may have been cramped but that is the whole LIRR expericance. and come on the windows are not that small i have ridden in coachs on some turist railroads that are the same sizes.

http://rmil.org
Norge156@aol.com

Olf, You are correct that the cars have great value to a Long Island preservation group. But they donÂ’t have historic value to a group operation on a Southern short line, or a to Midwest granger line.

Too many of our groups just collect what is available, or what they can get running quickly. Too often this results in a museum train consisting of a ex-military 45 ton GE, pulling commuter cars from a distant city. Add in a few cabooses, and boxcars full of spare parts and tools on an adjacent siding, a steam loco which has been undergoing restoration to operation for as long as anyone remembers. Off in the weeds are more piles of parts, and the remains of a passenger car converted to work service.

Then we wonder why the average guest doesnÂ’t understand when we talk about the grandeur and significance of railroads, or even why we love trains.

RAndy Hees

> you say the Long Island Railroad Pullmans
> hold no historical value? I have to disagree
> I am a memeber of the Railroad Museum of
> Long Island and we have two f such cars in
> our collection which were both used in the
> 50's in the retiring ceramony of steam on
> Long Island. Also these coachs were built
> for one of the first Railroads in the United
> States and second of all the Oldest
> operating one in the USA. Our goal is to
> restore these coachs inside and out to thier
> original 1950's look . These cars are as
> important as lets say a coach from the
> Empire Builder in historical value they
> lasted longer then most coachs under on
> charcter yes they may have been cramped but
> that is the whole LIRR expericance. and come
> on the windows are not that small i have
> ridden in coachs on some turist railroads
> that are the same sizes.


http://spcrr.org
hees@ix.netcom.com

NO FAIR, you must have driven by!

lamontdc@adelphia.net

I see your point in some ways, think of this on this way most railway museums in some regions were served by various railroads, and the reason why small operations purchaces these cars are the price. Long Island was served by one Passenger Railroad, and all that is left of the oldest operating railroad in the USA is two G5's 4-6-0's
# 35 and # 39, a Rottery Snow Plow at Steam Town, various Alco R-S3's one of which is at the Railroad Museum of Long Island, # 1556 which replaced # 39, a few R-S1's and an handfullof S-2's a Ping Pong ( Coachs) or two and the Pullmans and we cannot forget New York Central/ LIRR Heavyweight # 2004 at New Hope an Iveryland oh yea not historical vlaue. I will tell you I wish the museum i work for would preserve something of the LIRR's former parent the Pennsylvannia Railroad, but we wish not to.
My goal is to restore Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal Railway # 16 a HK Porter 0-6-0t which is the last Steam engine to operate on Long Island, New York State, and the East Coast of the USA in revenue service. One of her sisters 0-6-0t # 15 is operating but under a mask, she is Thomas The Tank Engine at Strausburg, look at that pice of history ruiened to make a buck but it is a great idea and atleast she opeartes but her big sister may operate again soon.

BEDT15@aol.com

> We are a small NRHS Chapter on Long Island. We would be happy to take EVERY ex LIRR coach you are all complaining about off your hands. We can and would have a good use for them. What do you want from a car thats 50 yrs old and seen hundreds of Thousands of miles. Stop the complaining and donate them to a group like ours and we will be proud to retain the history of these cars. I bet not one complaining person wants to donate a car, you all want to get big bucks for a car you complain about.

I see your point in some ways, think of this
> on this way most railway museums in some
> regions were served by various railroads,
> and the reason why small operations
> purchaces these cars are the price. Long
> Island was served by one Passenger Railroad,
> and all that is left of the oldest operating
> railroad in the USA is two G5's 4-6-0's
> # 35 and # 39, a Rottery Snow Plow at Steam
> Town, various Alco R-S3's one of which is at
> the Railroad Museum of Long Island, # 1556
> which replaced # 39, a few R-S1's and an
> handfullof S-2's a Ping Pong ( Coachs) or
> two and the Pullmans and we cannot forget
> New York Central/ LIRR Heavyweight # 2004 at
> New Hope an Iveryland oh yea not historical
> vlaue. I will tell you I wish the museum i
> work for would preserve something of the
> LIRR's former parent the Pennsylvannia
> Railroad, but we wish not to.
> My goal is to restore Brooklyn Eastern
> District Terminal Railway # 16 a HK Porter
> 0-6-0t which is the last Steam engine to
> operate on Long Island, New York State, and
> the East Coast of the USA in revenue
> service. One of her sisters 0-6-0t # 15 is
> operating but under a mask, she is Thomas
> The Tank Engine at Strausburg, look at that
> pice of history ruiened to make a buck but
> it is a great idea and atleast she opeartes
> but her big sister may operate again soon.


Twinforksnrhs@aol.com

Two points I forgot to mention ... prior to obtaining our four LIRR coaches we would lease passenger cars for the operating season. If you couple the initial cost plus maintenance to date of the LIRR coaches with leasing and transportation for the visiting cars we have just about paid the LIRR cars off, nice equity. Right now our line is a typical tourist railroad, not a museum. There never was any regular scheduled passenger service on the line, in fact the line only had one locomotive lettered in its name and I think they borrowed it.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

Valid point, guys. Whether or not these cars are desirable for tourist or dinner train operation, there SHOULD be at least one of the more modern LIRR cars preserved for posterity--even if only as an example of how NOT to build a car! >;-)

It's not at a critical stage; I believe the brokers still have plenty to choose from, including a couple of the parlor cars. However, look at the scads of "Ping-Pongs" that were cut up at Steamtown in Vermont because they were basically unfit to move, let alone reuse. Next thing we know, there might not be any of these next-generation cars left in any LIRR configuration for preservation.

There are a couple possible preservation groups on Long Island--the Long Island-Sunrise Trail and Twin Forks NRHS Chapters and the RR Museum of Long Island. Can they pool resources to acquire an original car before they're all gone--in spite of the alleged structural defects? Maybe even maintain a couple in operable condition for the frequent LIRR excursions?

lner4472@bcpl.net

> However, look at the scads of
> "Ping-Pongs" that were cut up at
> Steamtown in Vermont because they were
> basically unfit to move, let alone reuse.
> Next thing we know, there might not be any
> of these next-generation cars left in any
> LIRR configuration for preservation.

Sandy,

"Most" of the Ping-Pongs were not cut up in Vermont, the majority of the ones Steamtown owned actually did nake it to Scranton, where about five or six were run, until the 1.75% grade beat the hell and the truck rivets out of them. A couple (one was the "Catamount Tavern") were sold to a steel mill somewhere near Youngstown for "plant tour" use when John Hart was desparately looking for extra cash. The remainder were sold at the Foundation auction, from which Sloan Cornell bought the ones he could move off the property, plus most of the spare parts. A few imovable ones were finally cut up in Scranton, but not by the Foundation or SNHS.

I belive there also used to be some of these in Boonton, NJ. Have they been scapped, too?

Steve Zuiderveen

SZuidervee@aol.com

And the working AC on the last batch of cars sold has already been converted to the "green" freon products and have been recently serviced, aren't some of those cars self contained with diesel powered electrical equipment? This group is always worried about people using up artifacts so why are these cars so bad if they are used to keep some tourist hack from cutting up REAL cars and or wearing them down to nothing. LI ccars should be considered heros if they work in place of something of more antiquity.

"Right now our line is a typical tourist railroad, not a museum"

Out of curiousity what is a typical tourist line other than a for profit business? Don't they all have some attraction that makes them stand out? I didn't think any of them were typical ><



JamesKissinger@hotmail.com

> Out of curiousity what is a typical tourist
> line other than a for profit business? Don't
> they all have some attraction that makes
> them stand out? I didn't think any of them
> were typical ><

IMHO a "typical" tourist railroad is one that provides a train ride highlighting attractions of its ROW without any pretense of being a "museum". Equipment is not necessarily "themed" to a particular era or railroad. Keeping its generic facility in compliance with FRA requirements is of more importance than preservation. Please note that I do not consider this a bad thing and in fact it can be a source of community interest and depending on marketing can be quite successful.


lamontdc@adelphia.net