Should railroads, museums that operates on their own private property should be exempt FRA/State regulations.

Don't their locomotives have state boiler inspections/certificates ?? I know that most (if not all) non-FRA operations have that level of oversight. Most (if not all) states require locomotive boilers to meet ASME Locomotive Power Boiler Standards, which require a hydro test with cold water to a pressure 150% of MAWP, which is more severe than the FRA requires. To my way of thinking, this is an adequate margin of safety, and it satisfies most (if not all) underwriters as well.

During several visits to the Henry Ford I’ve never seen anything remotely concerning about their railroad or the operation.

If you are concerned about Henry Ford, you’d also want to be concerned about Dollywood, Disney World and Disneyland Railroads, and many other steam operations that don’t fall
Under FRA but carry thousands a year and operate steam way more than most museums and tourist railroads.

For a detailed understanding and clarification of The Extent And Exercise Of FRA's Safety Jurisdiction over all railroads, including tourist, see 49 CFR Part 209 - Appendix A.https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/s ... o-Part-209

For a qucik overview specific to tourist, see https://railroads.dot.gov/legislation-r ... -railroads

MD Ramsey

[Edit - Brother Ramsey beat me to it]

To answer the question generally, no. Some entity has to have the authority to oversee operations that can cause a lot of damage and/or maim and kill people. Otherwise, humans, as they are wont to do, will always take the easy way without foreseeing the consequences of their actions or knowing them and ignore the warning signs anyway.

Having a connection to the general system doesn't matter. It doesn't change the rules.

As it is now, if you run on the general system, then yes you should and are required to follow FRA rules (with some exceptions, see below) in the interest of public safety.

If you are non-insular, you are exempt from some rules mostly because a lot of us are running vintage equipment that would be prohibitively expensive to bring up to current rule standards but are maintained safe under the older rules This is what some of us refer to as "FRA Lite" and is also in the interest of public safety.

If you are insular, the FRA currently exercises no direct jurisdiction but you will be subject to state regulations. In this case, In my humble opinion, you should follow FRA guidelines where applicable as best you can in the interest of safety - yours and the public. IIRC, the FRA reserves the right to poke around if you have an accident.

The FRA's mission is safety in the railroad environment. It behooves us to follow the rules to lessen the chances of injuring or killing someone.

Hello

The oversite of railroad really depends on how and where the railroad operates. The FRA follow chart completely covers this, If you are not regulated by the FRA you cover then by state laws (osha, Boiler, ect).

To the question, Should Tourist railroad be exempt from regulations (FRA or State) absolutely not, you need look no further than the Gettsburg Railroad incident for a good reason why.

Tourist Railroad and museum that operate must have a robust safety and operational plan for the safety of volunteers, Employees and Public. This included oversite.

I know there is anti goverment crowd that hangs out in railfans circles, before your start to type with a response take the time to read about the laws like the "Safety Appliance" Act"

Insurance companys also play a hand in the safety at these railroad, you can easliy have your policy cancelled for falures in safety.

A quick point on the Gettysburg “incident”. That railroad was under FRA jurisdiction at the time. As I’m sure has been discussed at length on this forum, the violations were numerous. Oversight was clearly lacking, but the primary responsibility falls on the operators. There is no substitute for training and employing quality people, especially on steam locomotives. Careful and thorough adherence to regulations, state or federal, is obviously critical to safety and it is the responsibility management and employees/ volunteers to maintain this culture.

GWR 90 will be taken out of service (temporarily) this year for its 1472

As I mentioned on another thread here:

Consider your responses to questions about industry safety norms when you are on a witness stand, facing a hostile interrogation by a plaintiff's attorney. Maybe those blue flag [or other FRA regulations] regulations weren't such a bad idea after all. Maybe it would have been a good idea to take unsafe persons out of operating service before they injured or killed someone. When you're being grilled in court, it's way too late.

If an operation thinks "the rules don't apply to us", that's an admission that they are dangerous yahoos who have no business turning a wheel, or boiling water.

Howard P.

Mr. Ramsey, if you please.

I seem to recall that the Georgetown Loop falls under the definition of being insular, with no public grade crossings, etc., however, the FRA does or did extend some level of jurisdiction over the line after a public complaint to a politician regarding the first operator after the Ashby's contract was cancelled.

The line has a serious down grade essentially from the last switch in Silver Plume yard clear to the other end of the line, so excellent functioning brakes are essential.

Am I remembering that correctly? Is the line still under FRA? Are there any other railroads that would normally be considered insular that the FRA has extended its jurisdiction over?

If I am off base on what I think I remember, I will happily retract every word.

Greetings Kelly!

Back in the days when the Georgetown Loop began (1976), the FRA did not have any policy that included "insular” or "non-insular" regarding tourist operations. Since the railroad wasn't a part of the general system, it was ignored by FRA. By the early 90's, when FRA created these policies regarding tourist operations, it is my guess that no one at FRA stopped to consider and evaluate every tourist operation regarding these policies, especially if the railroad was well operated and didn't have any issues.

Fast forward to 2005. New operators, different equipment and public complaints attracted the attention of FRA. The FRA Chief Inspector assigned to evaluate the operation found that the high bridge crossed over a public road, owned by the county and maintained by the city of Georgetown. According to FRA policy, a tourist operation will not be considered insular if one or more of the following exists on its line:

•A public highway-rail crossing that is in use;
•An at-grade rail crossing that is in use;
•A bridge over a public road or waters used for commercial navigation; or
•A common corridor with a railroad, i.e., its operations are within 30 feet of those of any railroad.

This singular grade separated crossing over a public road identified the railroad as being a "non-insular" operation with appropriate FRA regulations in place as applicable. That is still the position of FRA regarding this operation today.

I am not aware of any other so called "insular" operations that FRA chooses to excersise jursidiction over outside of FRA policy. I am aware of some tourist operations that have been considered as "General System" by FRA when they shouldn't be. This was brought to the attention of FRA for one railroad 2 years ago and they are now considered "non-insular" with relief from some of the regulations they had been under for years.

Mike Ramsey

The OP seemed to question why the Henry Ford operation doesn't fall under FRA - but didn't give any complaints of unsafe practices. Many operations don't fall under FRA but have incredible safety records.

In fact, I can think of 2 tourist operations that do fall under FRA that have had major accidents in the last 2 years - much worse than anything that's happened at Henry Ford, or the several theme parks that operate similar operations.

I'll point out again that many non-FRA railroads, like the ones at Disney World, Disneyland, Dollywood, Cedar Point, Knotts, etc. operate steam WAY more than most tourist railroads and museums do and have excellent safety records.

There is a tourist operation in Indiana that intentionally removed a section of track near their connection to the general system so as to be exempt from FRA paperwork/ reporting requirements, which (according to them) they found to be onerous, even though it meant losing a freight shipper (a scrap yard). A person from the organization in question said so in a post on the old Indiana Railroads discussion board, and that the requirements were not worth what they could make from freight revenues. Always seemed short-sighted to me.

The freight customer is what made them general system, not the connection itself. Having a connection alone will not make a railroad part of the general system, it is what the connection is used for……..such as serving a scrap yard.

MDR

I think you need to send us popcorn 1st for such a fishing post, your axe is still smoking from the grinding, if you don't mind what drama do we also expect of the Henry Ford now?

One post, one pointed out org, goes right to pearl clutching "What of the guests?"
This all screams of some clown got ran off and now wants to stir up shit.