While Mr. Levin's restoration efforts with his E-8's and office car are some of the most positive individual preservation efforts I have seen, I question the creation of his latest effort which took one of the most significant cars on the Southern Pacific Sunset Limited and turned it into something it never was. The changes he performed to the carbody forever changed what was the "French Quater Lounge" car into a pseudo-PRR abomination. I wish he could have considered the sensitivities of people who are fans of the SP before hacking up this car. Mr. Levin, Would you have done the same to a car from the "Broadway Limited".




EspeeMan69@aol.com

It would help if you got your facts together before whining over your perceived loss of a so-called Espee treasure.

1. This was and, I believe, is not the only SP French Quarter Car

2. AMTRAK greatly altered the SP exterior window pattern on at least one shopping

3. AMTRAK tunneled the interior of the car at least twice.

4. By the time it was placed for sale by a private party, it did not resemble your French Quarter Car of blessed memory.

The work on the car was done in such a manner that the Budd Fluted stanless lower panels are still in place and are only covered with the new stainless steel siding.If someone wanted to buy it and return it to the stainess fluted appearance they could.

The car was for sale for years and no SP group or individual evidenced any serious interest in purchasing the car from either AMTRAK or the prior owner.

Would you have been any happier if we restored the SP lettering on a car that AMTRAK had significantly altered and had no resembalance to the original SP car either from the exterior or the interior.?

I resent your comment that we "hacked up" anything, or that what we did was an abomination.

When we bought the car it had no redeeming historical signifcance. We did not make it an exsatz SP car or a pseudo-PRR car. We didn't copy a name or a number. It is what is is: JTFS 1157---WARRIOR RIDGE!!!!!

We try to consider every one's reasonable sensitities, but get realistic!!!!!! This car was no thoughbred when we bought it!!!!!

> While Mr. Levin's restoration efforts with
> his E-8's and office car are some of the
> most positive individual preservation
> efforts I have seen, I question the creation
> of his latest effort which took one of the
> most significant cars on the Southern
> Pacific Sunset Limited and turned it into
> something it never was. The changes he
> performed to the carbody forever changed
> what was the "French Quater
> Lounge" car into a pseudo-PRR
> abomination. I wish he could have considered
> the sensitivities of people who are fans of
> the SP before hacking up this car. Mr.
> Levin, Would you have done the same to a car
> from the "Broadway Limited".


v-scarpitti@att.net

>The car was for sale for years and no SP group or
>individual evidenced any serious interest in
>purchasing the car from either AMTRAK or the prior
>owner.

That' s the ugly truth in plain text.

Let me illustrate an example of something the "purist" in me blew up about, and then rethought.

The ARHS CNJ-painted F-3's committed two "crimes" according my past feelings. One, they scrapped the very first CF-7 for parts. Two, they modified a B&M F-7B to look like a CNJ F-3B... a double whammy considering the matching F-7A runs in North Conway, NH!

So, I bitched and moaned... questioned people... ticked people off... took the high road... yada, yada, yada...

And then, somewhere in a blinding lightning storm I had a flash of - dare I say it - realism. Not choo choo realism, but life realism.

That original CF-7? Well, the ARHS did alert Santa Fe groups that something could be worked out - before - the unit was used up. No solution came up? Is the *Anthracite* group supposed to preserve a Santa Fe engine that Santa Fe folks didn't want.

Not in my book. Scratch objection #1.

OK, but that B&M B-unit. That was a crime, right? Well, not much else made it out of the Billerica scrap line. All those milk cars and F-units that were there... only a handful made it out. Had the B-unit sate there, it would be gone.

So, chances are that if the ARHS did not come forward, ther B would be toast. Instead, it had some sheet metal changed and is still with us. Someday, I hope to see her with her mate in New Hampshire (sheet metal re-done). At least she is around to have that hope.

Oh, and yeah, I forgot the third crime about the A-units. They are BAR units. Not CNJ.

Right. I do not like facadism at all. However, even admitting that, I have to say that these 2 F3's have fared much better than the one F-3 that the BAR still has.

It is easy to critique things like the Warrior Ridge, the CNJ F's and the Erie E's. I know becasue I did it for years.

Now, as long as MAJOR damage is not done to the piece, I have a different view. Instead of being angry people are doing something I would see as "wrong," I see them as caretakers ensuring a piece survives until (hopefully) it will emerge in a more appropriate interpretive setting.

Without these caretakers, the only choice for interpretation in the future would be scale models.

It isn't easy for a perfectionist to admit there is middle ground, but there is.

Rob

trains@robertjohndavis.com

So what is the actual heritage of Bennet's E8's?

The Blue Mountain Lines
norfolk_western_611@hotmail.com

You take an old NYC cab and paint it up for Baltimore and who knows any better? Diesels, like Checkers were both produced as standard models. Sure there were some custom features but when you come down to it you are olny talking about a paint job. When it comes down to the bottom line John Q Public and his family don't care.

Tom

PRR Wilmington Roundhouse
tom@forgottendelaware.com

> So what is the actual heritage of Bennet's
> E8's?

PRR, PRR, and Erie. See Bennett's editorial "To be Erie or not to be Erie" on the Editorials page here at RyPN.


eledbetter@rypn.org

I have now sat here and read most of these posts and came up with one question. Are we saying there is little difference between a can of paint and a torch?

I tend to focus on the "simple act of preservation." In other words, anything is better than a torch.

We saved a 1880s PRR car from the weather and would love to give it to someone. No takers though. I suppose someday the right group will come along but until then it is safely stored indoors waiting for its day in the sun.

Keep up the good work to all of you, no matter what color it might be painted.

J.R.

> At least this is the only place today when
> one can get their "juices"
> flowing! Since my name has surfaced I would
> like to share some thoughts with you about
> this thread. When Eric and I bought the
> locomotives from NS and CSX there was never
> any intention to paint the 4022 as a PRR
> engine. As a matter of fact there was never
> any intention to use the 4022 as an 'Organ
> Donor". We purchased a spare
> "nose" in case of a calamity, and
> now have purchased a spare hulk from the
> B&O museum. The 4022 has too much of its
> original fabric intact to start giving up
> parts to keep the 5711 and 5809 running. As
> the slogan once said, "Let Conrail be
> Conrail" and as the original Conrail
> Executive Engine we believe that the current
> livery is historically suitable for that
> locomotive at this time.

> When we created the "Warrior
> Ridge" there was never any
> consideration to letter it PENNSYLVANIA. We
> are not a museum but yet there are certain
> things that should be observed and fiction
> should be fiction.

> I guess the underlying issue is that every
> group contains members whose opinions run
> the entire gamut from "purity to
> whimsey" and it is the local internal
> politics that govern. If the URHS is an
> interim custodian to receive and collect
> "artifacts" for a future MUSEUM
> then they should be recognized as such. Can
> you all imagine if such an effort was
> mounted in this country in the 50's and
> 60's.

> I believe however that their mission is ripe
> for public discussion if tax dollars are
> being used for whatever the restoration
> effort is. If ISTEA or TEA-21 money was used
> to fund the restoration of the Creek obs
> car, the question of the cost and
> appropitness of the restoration is a fair
> one. If as has been alleged earlier in this
> thread $ 700,000 of ISTEA or TEA-21 money
> has beeen spent in the effort and the
> interior has been modified substanitally for
> use as a commerical venture to recover
> costs, than that is fair grounds for a
> public discussion. If the issue of spending
> more money to make the car AMTRAK certified,
> especially for operation on the NEC is true,
> then surely that is fair grounds for public
> discussion. What could that money have
> bought for the rest of the collection?

> Will this entire effort wind up on an
> NBC-Tom Browkaw "Fleecing of
> AMERICA" episode?

> I have some opinions but have to respect
> those who did whatever they did to get the
> money for the restoration. As I said before
> every group has those who can, those who do,
> and those who bitch. Without hearing the
> full story I would find it hard to form an
> honest and well informed opinion. But from
> what I know of personal experience that kind
> of expenditure of public money seems to
> warrant a few questions.

> As to the conversion of the car to make it
> AMTRAK approved for NEC service, I surely
> would question that logic. The operation of
> Private cars on the NEC is a rather
> difficult challange. Most trains are now
> 125MPH rated in the timetables and cannot
> handle private cars at that speed because of
> FRA regulations. AMTRAK's NEC management is
> not at all sympathetic to PV operation on
> their railroad and have created many
> barriers to PV operations. The current
> AMTRAK tariff for the movement of private
> cars does not yield sufficient revenue for
> AMTRAK to even reconsider some of their
> attitudes regarding the NEC PV business. So
> the question becomes, Why spend more
> taxpayer money to make the car suitable for
> a marginal opportunity at best?

> At least this thread gives someone something
> to do besides watch football. Hopefully
> there will be an informed and rational
> response. Speculation and conjecture only
> fuel the "rumor" mill and in an
> era of shrinking resorces we all need to
> hang together and the public perception of
> our conduct will effect what public
> resources will be available to use in the
> future.


http://www.njmt.org
jrmay@njmt.org

> You take an old NYC cab and paint it up for
> Baltimore and who knows any better? Diesels,
> like Checkers were both produced as standard
> models. Sure there were some custom features
> but when you come down to it you are olny
> talking about a paint job. When it comes
> down to the bottom line John Q Public and
> his family don't care.

Mind you, the random babbling is going to be on MY part, and not an editorial reference to Tom's post...

In response... where do you draw the line? If the folks who have SP 4460 repainted it as a WP engine, would it teach a museum attendee anything more?

If a museum took the USS New Jersey, and painted it as a scrapped Iowa-class battleship, is it an honest preservation attempt, or have you altered the historic fabric even though only a name and number was changed?

If the Air Force museum took a decrepit 707 out of a boneyard, and painted it up as Air Force One, would you pay the same amount of money to see it?

Would it be appropriate to take a bunch of Jeff Gordon's cars, repaint them, and then display them in the Dale Earnhardt museum?

Let's face it, railroad preservation is one of the few historical disciplines where replication is readily accepted, and often justified, by certain contingents. I attribute it to the "let's just save SOMETHING" syndrome.

Just as one can argue that the public doesn't care what the heritage of the unit is they're looking at, can we also argue... being that the public doesn't care... that replications only appease the interests of railfans who like to imagine "what if." Both views hold some validity.

If the typical member of the general public couldn't tell the difference between a Lehigh Valley F7, and an NJT F40, which mission best serves the purpose of educating them about rail history? Do we show them what it was like, or do we take a more purist approach? Can both be mixed effectively, without confusing the customor or diluting our message?

These are the type questions that we should be asking ourselves.

Should we be trying to save every single F unit still out there, while early GE's disappear at an alarming rate?

Heck... even the Dash 7 series, which gave EMD a run for their money in the 70's and 80's, is starting to fade into twilight. The vast majority of them will head right to the scrapper instead of being rebuilt and gaining second lives on regionals or shortlines. Which holds more value to a museum, a real Conrail C30-7, or a former CNW/NJT F unit painted up as Lehigh Valley? Since the public won't care, do we as a community let the GE become extinct?

Does replication have a place? Yes... but only in cases where it can add a SIGNIFICANT contribution to the museum's mission.

In the case of the NPS, and the site at Promontory, it was a case of replicas, or nothing else at a location of extreme significance to this country's history. I would classify that more as an exception, rather than the norm.

In other instances, I feel replicas are a disservice. Why tie up a museum's real estate with 4 or more F units in bogus paint jobs, when 1 genuine one and a display case full models showing the ones that didn't get saved could teach the public the value of funding transporation preservation?

As transportation continues to evolve, and today's locomotive's become tomorrow's "used to be's," it will become important to start deciding what gets displayed, and what should be passed over.

It doesn't take a rounhouse full of duplicate equipment to tell the story behind the evolution of rail transportation. One good E unit, shown in the proper setting, and with the right presentation, can do an equal or better job.

All I can say, is that we as a group should be asking ourselves where rail preservation is going.

With the new EPA emissions standards going into effect the next couple of years, many second generation diesels are going to be going to the scrapper.

One need look no further than the dead lines on the Class 1's, such as Enola or Altoona, to see the handwriting on the wall. Strings of GE's and older EMD's are sitting around waiting to be disposed of.

We have to be ready for the next evolution, before it comes to pass...


Fiv4HghStk@aol.com

> At least this is the only place today when
> one can get their "juices"
> flowing! Since my name has surfaced I would
> like to share some thoughts with you about
> this thread. When Eric and I bought the
> locomotives from NS and CSX there was never
> any intention to paint the 4022 as a PRR
> engine. As a matter of fact there was never
> any intention to use the 4022 as an 'Organ
> Donor". We purchased a spare
> "nose" in case of a calamity, and
> now have purchased a spare hulk from the
> B&O museum. The 4022 has too much of its
> original fabric intact to start giving up
> parts to keep the 5711 and 5809 running. As
> the slogan once said, "Let Conrail be
> Conrail" and as the original Conrail
> Executive Engine we believe that the current
> livery is historically suitable for that
> locomotive at this time.

Mr. Levin,

For the record, I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't questioning your plans for 4022 in my previous post. As a private owner, as opposed to a historical society, you could paint it pink with purple polka dots if you so choose. It's your own dime, and that makes it your business, and your business only.

I was merely suggesting that if the URHS wanted a genuine Erie E8 for their collection bad enough, there MAY have been options they could have explored. There would be no guarantee any proposals would have panned out, or been viable to begin with. However, as a group entrusted to preserving NJ's rail heritage, the URHS should explore every option available to them when a piece appropriate for the proposed NJ museum collection is identified.

For some of their officers to openly lament the fact that they'd like more genuine predecessor locomotives in the collection so replications wouldn't be necessary, but then not make the attempt to pursue one that is out there ... while spending a reported $700K of public money on the restoration of a single car ... points to some possible dysfunction within the organization.

As others have mentioned, the expectations should be different between a private venture, and a historical society that solicits for public donations (or is granted government funds). Juniata Terminal certainly seems to qualify as a private venture, so for anyone to suggest that they should be held to the same standard as a museum would be misguided.

I also agree with you 100% on your comments surrounding Amtrak, the outlook for PV operations on their network, and operation on the NEC in particular. If the logistics and customer base weren't in the state they're in, I'm sure there's a certain PRR car that wouldn't spend so much idle time at 30th Street. :-)

It has always been my understanding the one should not go into private car ownership expecting to make their money back off charters. It's nice if some come up here and there to help defray the costs, but you're getting into the wrong business if you're putting money into one under the assumption the charter business is going to offer a significant return on your initial investment.

I've never owned a private car, so I don't know how valid that line of thinking is, but it's what I've been told by those who knew more about the subject.

That said, perhaps there are other things the URHS could be spending their money on. The $60K they claim they're going to need for Amtrak certification would probably buy a whole bunch of vintage freight cars for the proposed NJ museum.

But... without Amtrak certifcation, that also raises the question as to whether a practical restoration for Hickory Creek, to make the car self sufficient for charters, was a better choice than a historically accurate one.

Hope everyone has a Happy New Year


Fiv4HghStk@aol.com

In the 50's & 60's scads of equipment was available for $15/ton or a wink, with RR shipping the rule rather than the exception. Vast "junkyards" of RR equipment were scattered around the country. With no large organizations, private folks stepped up to the plate for purchases and the equipment was "saved". Some operations made it into the museum class while others stayed in the club mode, hence our big division point. We have seen many failures of the clubs over the years for whatever reason but a significant number made the transition into museums. Personally, I am stuck in the club mode as the personal owner of several pieces of unique equipment in an operation that has deteriorated into an attempt at tourist railroading from an original concept of museum operation. Part of the reason for the was a complete mis-reading of the FRA regulations by several misguided people. Actual personal contact with the FRA and subsequent face-to-contact with the FRA folks has revealed a different picture and a more common sense approach. In actuality contact with other operating groups to see how they are operating would have solved this problem years ago but egos got in the way. So the big question I have is based on organizational experience how do you get a board of trustees to change direction and become part of the "mainstream" of railroad preservation ???


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> So what is the actual heritage of Bennet's
> E8's?

They are what they claim to be - each has its original PRR number. They also have Amtrak's HEP conversion and Conrail's modifications to make them working locomotives in today's environment.



Electric City Trolley Museum Association

Replace the emotionally driven egos with rational beings in leadership positions? Sounds like a political problem to me from what you posted.

Take some comfort in that you are not alone.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Two additional comments and then I'll spend the day chasing Uncle Pete at MP600 on the Sunset Line.

1. For those of you who have not visited the operation run by Mr. May's group at the Allaire Park in New Jersey, you do not realize what a GEM you are missing. It is easily reached by I-195 or the GSP. You can spend hours marveling about what hard work and determination can do. I would guess that the group is very focused and there is not much, if any energy, wasted on inter-mural squabbles. Do not miss it. It is well worth the ride.

2. Getting back to the CP O'Shay's post, the following might bring "things" into clearer perspective.

A. No one ever approached either Eric or myself about acquiring the 4022 for cash, trade, baseball cards, or a copy of the Declaration of Independence. We bought the locomotive at a public internet auction conducted by GE for CSX. Where were the bidders? As someone once said, "is it not better to curse the darkness than light a candle?"

B. While the 4022 has the electronics it does not have the HEP generators so with the exception of the 480 plugs the carbody has not been modified to acccommodate the generators or the additional cooling fans. The original vapor steam generator is still in place. That is why we believe it is an important artifact. If and when the time comes to dispose of it, I can assure you it will only go somewhere with a dedicated funding base and little room for squabbling.

C. The investment in the Warrior Ridge only came about because we saw the need to provide "public" space on excursions run behind the E-units. Let no one deceive themselves, the prior post is correct. Under current circumstances there is no way that the operation of a PV on AMTRAK in the NE or on the NEC can be considered profitable. Maybe with TR 42/43 terminating in Pittsburgh things will open up but for all intents and purposes until AMTRAK resolves NEC operating problems with the PV community (which may never happen) there is no way to justify the owning and other fixed costs of PV operation in the NE. For instance, insurance has almost double this past year. These cars only make money when they run and when your fixed costs rise exponentally and you only have limited operating opportunites the financial outlook is indeed bleak. That is one of the reasons that we saw the use of the locomotives and PV type excursions as a way to at least justify and underwrite the preservation and operation of these treasures. Almost every excursion that has run with the E-units has been for the direct benefit of a local charity. The Rockville trips helped the Harrisburg NRHS chapter establish an endowment for the restoration and up-keep of HARRIS tower. The Clearfield trips raised $50,000 for local Clearfield Charities, and needless to say that the trips in 2001 and 2002 for Altoona's Railfest contributed significantly to eating away the the "problem" in Blair County.

All this has been done with private funds at a facility that pays taxes and is not the beneficary of taxpayer lagress. Eric has attempted to faithfull recreate the visual image of the locomotives in there former state recognizing that if they were going to run than there would have to be modifications to the prestine 1950's appearance. But look at any PRR photobook and you will see freight pilots on passenger engines and, in fact so many modifications that no two locomotive look the same.

With regard to the Espee fan who was so upset about the Warrior Ridge, why not attack AMTRAK for originally removing the Espee name, blocking up windows, gutting the interior, etc, etc. Consider that the Espee sold the car to AMTK, who sold it to a broker, who sold it to another railroad, who painted and configured it the way that they saw fit!!!!! No what is wrong with that?

Eric and I are not a museum, but the effort and attention to detail is attempted on that level.

The equipment was purchased to "RUN".

We have tried to make Railroading in the Pennsylvania area a little more exciting, not only for railfans but also for the great unwashed you jusy want to take their kids down to the local crossing to show them what it looked like years ago. We have tried to make provision for local charities benefit from the experience and we are very pleased with how, not only the railfan community has appreciated the effort, but how we have be accepted by the general population and the railroad industry in particular.



v-scarpitti@att.net

This seems to be the biggest problem in the railway museum field -- everyone seems to have boards that just can't "get with the program" when they try to be a museum. Perhaps we are too railfan and not enough business.

> In the 50's & 60's scads of equipment
> was available for $15/ton or a wink, with RR
> shipping the rule rather than the exception.
> Vast "junkyards" of RR equipment
> were scattered around the country. With no
> large organizations, private folks stepped
> up to the plate for purchases and the
> equipment was "saved". Some
> operations made it into the museum class
> while others stayed in the club mode, hence
> our big division point. We have seen many
> failures of the clubs over the years for
> whatever reason but a significant number
> made the transition into museums.
> Personally, I am stuck in the club mode as
> the personal owner of several pieces of
> unique equipment in an operation that has
> deteriorated into an attempt at tourist
> railroading from an original concept of
> museum operation. Part of the reason for the
> was a complete mis-reading of the FRA
> regulations by several misguided people.
> Actual personal contact with the FRA and
> subsequent face-to-contact with the FRA
> folks has revealed a different picture and a
> more common sense approach. In actuality
> contact with other operating groups to see
> how they are operating would have solved
> this problem years ago but egos got in the
> way. So the big question I have is based on
> organizational experience how do you get a
> board of trustees to change direction and
> become part of the "mainstream" of
> railroad preservation ???

> A. No one ever approached either Eric or
> myself about acquiring the 4022 for cash,
> trade, baseball cards, or a copy of the
> Declaration of Independence. We bought the
> locomotive at a public internet auction
> conducted by GE for CSX. Where were the
> bidders?

This is a HUGE point! IME, those who wail and whine the loudest about cars/engines/museums/depots are usually the ones who sit on their hands and glue their wallets shut when the piece is at the "now or never" point. But they are the first to point fingers at
those who actually do put their own money where their mouths are.

> All this has been done with private funds at
> a facility that pays taxes and is not the
> beneficary of taxpayer lagress.

There are museums, there are railfan clubs that have cars/locomotives, and there are private owners. There are vast differences between the 3. Private owners have their own money at risk, and can do as they please with what they own, no matter how much that might antagonize fans. Legitimate museums, epsecially those that rely on donations and IRS status for funding, have to be accountable to donors.

The other kind is nothing much more than a bunch of guys playing with trains, usually starting out with something along the lines of "...I'd sure like to take a picture of the old XY&Z engines. I know there aren't any, but I can make some." That's all fine, well and good as long as these guys are honest with themselves and with the public. But when they obtain donations and IRS status to finance their personal fantasies and call it preservation, that's a horse of a different color (ouch!). Personally, I don't care if somebody buys an RS-1 and tried to makie it into a Centipede, as long as he doesn't expect or demand or claim to be a legitimate museum or try to get taxpayer funds (under the guise of being a museum) to do it.

> Eric and I are not a museum, but the effort
> and attention to detail is attempted on that
> level.

> The equipment was purchased to
> "RUN".

> We have tried to make Railroading in the
> Pennsylvania area a little more exciting,
> not only for railfans but also for the great
> unwashed you jusy want to take their kids
> down to the local crossing to show them what
> it looked like years ago. We have tried to
> make provision for local charities benefit
> from the experience and we are very pleased
> with how, not only the railfan community has
> appreciated the effort, but how we have be
> accepted by the general population and the
> railroad industry in particular.

You never have claimed to be anything but what you say you are, and that honesty is refreshing, IMO.

Thanks, Bennet.