> Yikes, I've heard horror stories about IRM,
> such as severe infighting and intolerance
> for "other" technologies--i.e.
> trolley guys don't talk to the steam guys
> kind of mentality.

Well that's ridiculous... generally. Hehe. Truthfully, I would admit that there is some infighting at IRM (this seems hard to avoid), but that it is primarily personality disputes and VERY rarely (if ever) involves large groups or cliques working against each other. There's no such thing as "one department won't talk to another." There definitely is a sense of "we're all in this together" (a poster with that legend is prominently mounted in the Electric Car Shop) and, while the different departments at IRM are largely independent of each other, when push comes to shove everyone is willing to help out. The results speak for themselves.

As for voting, Erik is correct. Paying your IRM dues entitles you to Associate Membership, which involves the usual perks like free admission and the newsletter but does not entitle you to vote. To become a Regular (voting) Member at IRM, you must fulfill several criteria.

1) You must have been an Associate Member for at least one year.
2) You must go through a one-year probationary period between application for and admission to Regular Membership.
3) You must contribute some work (generally a day) in each of several departments. These include Steam, Diesel, Electric Car, Freight Car, Passenger Car, Track/Signal, Buildings & Grounds, Library, Bus/Trolley Bus, and I think one or two I'm forgetting. You must also have each of these department curators sign off on your admission to Regular Membership.
4) During the probationary year, you must keep a log of all Museum activities.

Any Regular Member is eligible for election to the Board of Directors, which consists of seven people directly elected by the entire Regular Membership.

Frank Hicks

fullparallel@wideopenwest.com

I think that you should look at a tourist line like The Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern Steam Railroad in Kempto, Pa. They are a small tourist line that serves it's purpose which is to recreate what it was like in the days gone by, while still contolling costs. They are run by all volunteers, but are a for - profit group. Every cent they make goes right back into the railroad. They never altered their equipment. They think at a reasonable level. They don't go out and try to buy a 2-8-2, they go for a 0-6-0. All their equipment is restored and serves its purpose. Then you look at Railtours in Jim Thorpe, Pa. They use two Ex - Bangoor & Aroostock F3's. They are painted to replicate to similar CNJ units that were scrapped. They aren't a museum, they are a tourist line. I think there is a major difference. A museum purpose is to show you what it was like in the old days. They do this by artifacts such as locomotives and rolling stock in there as-delivered scheme. A tourist line's purpose is to recreate it the way it was like. I I think many people are confused. The URHS should try to show you what these locomotives and rolling stock did for New Jersey, not Illinois! They should show the way they looked and what they did. A tourist line should recreatea sense of the past. For example, Strausburg tries to recreate a sense of the past, but The RR museum of Pa shows you what it was like.
Aaron
~!HAPPY NEW YEAR!~

The Blue Mountain Lines
norfolk_western_611@hotmail.com

> The URHS should try to show you what these
> locomotives and rolling stock did for New
> Jersey, not Illinois! They should show the
> way they looked and what they did.

Aaron,

We're on exactly the same page. I think it would be silly for the proposed NJ museum to have restored CNW F-units in their collection. But, if they did work for and wear NJT colors, then show them as such. Don't try and make them into something they were not, such as LV, PRR, etc.

As the group formed to oversee the collection of equipment that will go to the NJ museum, the group should be thinking in the terms of a museum dedicated to preserving equipment in a historic state, not as a tourist line.

Steamtown is a good example of a property that was transformed in such a manner. Anyone else remember the "Lackawanna" steam locomotives from its early days in Scranton?

Fiv4HghStk@aol.com

It all comes down to these to simple terms and defenitions:
Railroad Tourist Line - A train ride that trys to recreate a sense of the past.
Railroad Museum - A museum dedicated to the preservation of artifacts of the past to share with the next generation.
Now if only URHS understood this . . .
~!HAPPY NEW YEAR!~
Aaron

The Blue Mountain Lines
norfolk_western_611@hotmail.com

So far we are doing great and I am learning something!

If I were doing an outline, I would make the first division as; A. Tourist Railroad B. Railroad Museum.

They have different goals and may have different modes of operation, both have volunteers, both have/operate/restore railroad equipment and appurtenances, both need a draw and both need money.

I think we have been through some of the different goals and mission statements of the museums but have not heard anything from the tourist railroads.

Would anyone care to comment on how to attract, hold and keep volunteers ???

Thanks



lamontdc@adelphia.net

I think the WK&S in Kempton, PA holds volunteers because they enjoy all the people who come and ride the trains. If the volunteers leave the railroad will go down with it. This kind of keeps a hold on the volunteers.

The Blue Mountain Lines
norfolk_western_611@hotmail.com

Yes Kempton is a very volunteer friendly place to work. They seem to get along with little friction and have a heck of a good time running steam. They know their resources and spend within their means. A good model on how to do things right.

> I think the WK&S in Kempton, PA holds
> volunteers because they enjoy all the people
> who come and ride the trains. If the
> volunteers leave the railroad will go down
> with it. This kind of keeps a hold on the
> volunteers.

Not all tourist railroads are in the recreating the past business. Some are in the access to scenery business, some in the fantasy business (either the public's or the operators), some in the impusle buy in an area with existing visitation seeking entertainment business, some in the restaurant on wheels business. A veneer of nostalgia is a marketing tool, not a business purpose.

Most tourist railroads are profit making enterprises, or planned to be that way. Some are operated and subsidized to bring economic development into a region. Some may be interpretive branches of railroad museums, which are the most likely to be in the re-enactment business.

In the "old days" clubs of guys who wanted to play trains had access to a huge quantity of obsolete equipment being retired or scrapped, and in a less litigious social environment. Times were good, donations plentiful, and 501C3 designations and the definition of "museum" as it related to large mechanical artifacts very vague.

Those days are gone now. If we call ourselves museums we need to act like museums. If we aren't museums but tourist railroads let's say so honestly and try our best to be good at it.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> We're on exactly the same page. I think it
> would be silly for the proposed NJ museum to
> have restored CNW F-units in their
> collection. But, if they did work for and
> wear NJT colors, then show them as such.
> Don't try and make them into something they
> were not, such as LV, PRR, etc.

> As the group formed to oversee the
> collection of equipment that will go to the
> NJ museum, the group should be thinking in
> the terms of a museum dedicated to
> preserving equipment in a historic state,
> not as a tourist line.

> Steamtown is a good example of a property
> that was transformed in such a manner.
> Anyone else remember the
> "Lackawanna" steam locomotives
> from its early days in Scranton?
This business of painting same-model-but-different-railroad locomotives in schemes used by your local favorite (model railroading in 1:1 scale) was something that the late Don Ball came up with in his operating plan for Steamtown.
CNJ-painted BAR F-3's and LV-painted LIRR FA's were to be used to generate cash from excursions when steam couldn't be used. That was prostituted
into the Lackawanna-painted trains that Steamtown
ended up with. Another historic group continued the idea with the BAR F-3's. I was another one concerned about the sacrificing of the original CF-7 for one of the F's, but the CF-7 was offered
(for $10,000, I recall),no one stepped up, and the group wanted to get things moving, so it was scrapped. They also wanted to do the FA thing, and they wanted to sacrifice a PRR RS-3 for that, but it never got very far. I'm sort of in favor of using painted-for units as expendables to keep the historic stuff preserved WHEN YOU'RE RUNNING EXCURSIONS,but please don't hold them out as historic, by any means. Also, looking at those F-3's in tangerine and blue now makes me realize why CNJ changed over to the deep sea green and imitation gold stripes scheme!

schwartzsj@juno.com

To JR:
I did not know of your operation. I will certainly pay a visit.

To CP (and others):
Unfortunately, you have confirmed what I saw and heard. The presentation I saw was given to a non-railfan group. People who knew I was interested in trains asked if this was the way all "train people" are. I think the confused and "boys with big toys" message given that day turned off a lot of potential civic minded non-railfan supporters. I hope they read boards like this and at least tone down the message they are sending to the general public.

hessler@mediacenter.com

I have deleted a post in this thread by "Jeremy" titled Facadism for violating the Terms of Service--in specific, no flaming. The post used a series of personal insult terms and attacks in its criticism of URHS.

Two counter-posts from Rob and GE went away with the offending post, because they were an orphan thread after the parent post was deleted.

URHS has had a tangled institutional history and has made controversial decisions which are proper subjects for debate and discussion on this board. So far this conversation about URHS has more or less stayed on the side of productive and constructive discussion/criticism. Let's keep it that way.

A reminder of the Interchange Terms of Service for any New Year new-comers:

1. Polite, constructive criticism, and polite responses to same, are acceptable
2. No flaming
3. No profanity

Any posts which violate these terms of service may be removed without warning at the moderator's discretion. When we do so remove posts we usually post a notice to that effect, giving reasons for the removal, as we have done here.



eledbetter@rypn.org

> In the "old days" clubs of guys
> who wanted to play trains had access to a
> huge quantity of obsolete equipment being
> retired or scrapped, and in a less litigious
> social environment. Times were good,
> donations plentiful, and 501C3 designations
> and the definition of "museum" as
> it related to large mechanical artifacts
> very vague.

> Those days are gone now. If we call
> ourselves museums we need to act like
> museums. If we aren't museums but tourist
> railroads let's say so honestly and try our
> best to be good at it.

I agree with you with you.

I also see a similarity to any local "save the county (or town) history" group. For whatever reason a group of people get together and decide to save stuff. This start is done by concerned and/or interested people and not by people knowledgeable in museum operation and artifact preservation.

Step A: Let's save this stuff because we think it is neat and should be saved.
Step B: If we've saving this stuff I guess we're a museum.
Step C: If we're a museum what should we be doing?

I am aware of a local history group that has a railroad component that sold off a 100+ year old passenger car body to a private collector (the body is now on its second private owner). Upon talking to this small-town group it seems that the governing board never heard of standard museum concepts. These being that if you think that you can't manage an artifact and want to find it a new hone you first go to other museums, etc. Then, after you have exhausted that course, you can consider selling to a private individual.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net

At least someone has saved the equipment . . . I guess that is better then becoming another victim of the torch.
Aaron
~!HAPPY NEW YEAR!~

The Blue Mountain Lines
norfolk_western_611@hotmail.com

And orphaned one of mine which is now lonely up at the top of the list.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

At least this is the only place today when one can get their "juices" flowing! Since my name has surfaced I would like to share some thoughts with you about this thread. When Eric and I bought the locomotives from NS and CSX there was never any intention to paint the 4022 as a PRR engine. As a matter of fact there was never any intention to use the 4022 as an 'Organ Donor". We purchased a spare "nose" in case of a calamity, and now have purchased a spare hulk from the B&O museum. The 4022 has too much of its original fabric intact to start giving up parts to keep the 5711 and 5809 running. As the slogan once said, "Let Conrail be Conrail" and as the original Conrail Executive Engine we believe that the current livery is historically suitable for that locomotive at this time.

When we created the "Warrior Ridge" there was never any consideration to letter it PENNSYLVANIA. We are not a museum but yet there are certain things that should be observed and fiction should be fiction.

I guess the underlying issue is that every group contains members whose opinions run the entire gamut from "purity to whimsey" and it is the local internal politics that govern. If the URHS is an interim custodian to receive and collect "artifacts" for a future MUSEUM then they should be recognized as such. Can you all imagine if such an effort was mounted in this country in the 50's and 60's.

I believe however that their mission is ripe for public discussion if tax dollars are being used for whatever the restoration effort is. If ISTEA or TEA-21 money was used to fund the restoration of the Creek obs car, the question of the cost and appropitness of the restoration is a fair one. If as has been alleged earlier in this thread $ 700,000 of ISTEA or TEA-21 money has beeen spent in the effort and the interior has been modified substanitally for use as a commerical venture to recover costs, than that is fair grounds for a public discussion. If the issue of spending more money to make the car AMTRAK certified, especially for operation on the NEC is true, then surely that is fair grounds for public discussion. What could that money have bought for the rest of the collection?

Will this entire effort wind up on an NBC-Tom Browkaw "Fleecing of AMERICA" episode?

I have some opinions but have to respect those who did whatever they did to get the money for the restoration. As I said before every group has those who can, those who do, and those who bitch. Without hearing the full story I would find it hard to form an honest and well informed opinion. But from what I know of personal experience that kind of expenditure of public money seems to warrant a few questions.

As to the conversion of the car to make it AMTRAK approved for NEC service, I surely would question that logic. The operation of Private cars on the NEC is a rather difficult challange. Most trains are now 125MPH rated in the timetables and cannot handle private cars at that speed because of FRA regulations. AMTRAK's NEC management is not at all sympathetic to PV operation on their railroad and have created many barriers to PV operations. The current AMTRAK tariff for the movement of private cars does not yield sufficient revenue for AMTRAK to even reconsider some of their attitudes regarding the NEC PV business. So the question becomes, Why spend more taxpayer money to make the car suitable for a marginal opportunity at best?

At least this thread gives someone something to do besides watch football. Hopefully there will be an informed and rational response. Speculation and conjecture only fuel the "rumor" mill and in an era of shrinking resorces we all need to hang together and the public perception of our conduct will effect what public resources will be available to use in the future.



v-scarpitti@att.net