I've discussed this with a couple of friends who do HR stuff and that's exactly what the tell me. There has to be some measure of what someone might be capable of and if the person has no experience, how else would they measure it?
I'm not saying I agree, but it is what it is.
I fought getting a degree for many years. I went to art school and worked for a newspaper but wasn't making enough to really get by with.
One day I talked with a Army ROTC recruiter and decided I was gonna try to be an army officer, something I'd always wanted to do but thought I never could.
I became a communications major, working almost full time (because Army scholarships had a cutoff age of 25, so I had to put myself through all this on my own dime) and all the ROTC stuff. Other than the Olympic torch coming through campus for the Atlanta Olympics, the girls I dated and the Army training, it's all a total blur to me today.
Did I really get anything out of it? Not all that much. My major was of no benefit later in life. I only did it so I could get my commission.
Like one of the HR people told me, a college degree now is like a high school degree was when I was born; you can make do without one but it's much easier with one.
That said, college was not for everyone originally, and it's not cheap. With admission requests beyond their ability to accept, schools can pick and choose who they want and charge anything they like. Hence, the student loan issues.

You have made 21 posts here on RYPN and most of them I can honestly say did not have anything to do with PRESERVATION, including this memorable one word post, "Rekt". You know what they say about glass houses...

I find that an increasing number of posts here are actually not of any real informational value, but are complains about topics that are being discussed and how those topics should not be discussed here. How about providing some content of real value on this "boomer message board"? The best way to improve the quality of RYPN is not to complain, but to contribute.

Agreed, Brother Rowlands,

But may I respectfully suggest that complaints/attacks on other members appear on the discussion board far too often, as well ?? I think your post should apply to them as well.

Sorry, that had nothing to do with PRESERVATION,
Sammy

It did. It keeps the frustration level down and preserves sanity.

Thank you Eric, but maybe preserving sanity isn't good for PRESERVATION. After all, you've got to be crazy to work on steam engines....

Remember - no rail equipment can be preserved without people possessing skills to fabricate and build - be that in wood or metal.

What I see is that kids don't know what career path that they might be interested in. I know 55 years ago, schools didn't help unless you wanted to go to college. Otherwise, "we suggest that you join the military." There are more vo-tech schools and junior colleges that offer two year degrees. Which is a big improvement. Another cause, is kids aren't exposed to people that work with their hands in a job or in a hobby.

While this thread started as a discussion between "blue collar" and "white collar" jobs, the subtext became jobs that generally require college degrees and those that do not. There are plenty of degreed engineers wearing safety goggles and hardhats. I'm not sure this distinction is at all clear.

As usual, the ancient Greeks made a useful distinction for conceptual forms for something we mindlessly aggregate and as a result just assume all education occurs as the result of pedagogy and is evidenced by institutional credentials.

Just as they distinguished between eros and philos where we use the term love, they divided knowledge into two forms:

Episteme: Knowing, book learning. analysis, theoretical knowledge. Root of word epistemic.

Techne: Know how, experiential learning/"street smarts", heuristics, practical knowledge. Root of words technology and technician.

Every person needs a combination of both to be complete, and it's not always clear when you'll need one sort or the other or when one supersedes the other. In some cases both are essential at the same time, and at others one is unavailable. A doctor receives a lot of university training, but you wouldn't let one treat you before completion of residency. On the other hand, I can personally attest that even a highly credentialed and experienced doctor can err and damn near kill you.

It's time we rediscover a societal respect for techne. These are the people that are often the most responsible for making our lives possible, interesting and convenient. Kelly's and his successor's posts over the years, detailing the activities and products of the "Strasburg Locomotive Works" should be appreciated as state of the art and works of enormous education. There's a lot of BFA's out there whose "art" might impress an echo chamber; but having pulled on a Strasburg made Seller's injector and hearing that satisfying click at the detent as it primed, and the rushing sound of water entering a boiler, that impresses me.

There's nothing new here. When I was in high school, the guys who were on sports teams dreamt of going pro and some of the cadets in the Air Force Junior ROTC unit wanted to become military officers, but that was about as far as it went. I didn't know anyone else who had any clue what they wanted to be when they graduated.
That was before the internet. I've talked with some high school teachers in recent years and I've heard a great deal of high school kids either wanna be influencers or just say they wanna be famous. Not famous for something specific, just famous; they don't seem to care for what.
The quest for fame has always been a thing, but these days any idiot can be famous for just being obnoxious. Blame it on reality TV as this is where "being famous for nothing" actually got started. The internet just made it much easier as you don't need a network for that.

When I was in junior high.. I walked past the schools print shop, which was chock full of big, heavy machinery... whirring gears and wheels, rotating cylinders and all kinds of very interesting machinery. I was fascinated.

I never had any inclination at further education... I knew enough to graduate high school.. but after that.. I wanted a job, to do something interesting.

My mothers spinster aunts... former school teachers in their 70's... told me "we'll pay for your college education." That held absolutely no interest with me. I'm sure they and my mother were disappointed that I didn't choose to do that....figured I'd end up as my dad, a house painter!

I got a job in a printing shop during my junior and senior years, and one year post graduation... I loved it...

Then, I applied at the MK&T railroad... got hired as a switchman... and the rest is history.

But, that said..... their needs to be lots of college graduates... someone got to be a mechanical engineer, a doctor.... teacher... all that higher educated stuff.

The "student loan forgiveness program" that the republicans are so against (citing it as a giveaway to affluent individuals-- I kid you not) sounds like a great idea.

If you can't afford high priced college, that shouldn't hold you back. I could have afforded it, but I didn't set my sights very high, lol. Originally... as a child, I aspired to be the trashman!!!

Back in the day, you could take ICS correspondence courses to get the book knowledge you needed to move into management (but you should keep your Brotherhood Card current)

Phil Mulligan

You still can.

Young'uns might not remember this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj23I8hgj28

"founded in 1889 in Scranton, Pennsylvania by journalist and editor of the Mining Herald, Thomas J. Foster.[Alarmed by frequent mine accidents, Foster advocated better working conditions and stricter safety regulations, which led to Pennsylvania's adoption of the Mine Safety Act of 1885 and the requirement for miners to pass a safety exam. In order to help workers pass the new test, Foster began an advice column in the Mining Herald answering mine safety questions."

It's now here: (internationally ICS Learn)

https://www.pennfoster.edu/

You'll need a computer and there's no locomotive engineer course and it does mean padding Bain Capital's bottom line, though.

My late father-in-law graduated from high school in 1939 and immediately went to work as a trackman for the PRR. When he was furloughed that fall, his father, a PRR engineman, took him to the Harrisburg roundhouse and presented him to the foreman, who took one look at the 225-pound, 6'3" kid and took him on. He stayed with the railroad for his entire career, working his way up from machinist to gang foreman, and in 1963 became assistant shop manager at the Enola locomotive shop. When he retired in 1981 after 42 years service, he was very proud of the fact that he was the only manager who was not a college man but had worked his way up the old-fashioned way. He was greatly admired by most of the men who worked for him, and on his last day, they presented him with a color photo of the whole crowd around and aboard Conrail 1939, in honor of his hire date.

.

I think we have unreasonable expectations of 18 year olds, assuming that they can plot the direction of their lives, when they are so damn dumb or you have no idea what's going to happen in your life or the world.

My wife is an RN. She initially ended wanted to get a computer science degree, but ended up with a biology degree. She was working in biotech/virology in Philly and not exactly fulfilled, but had a real insight when she witnessed a stabbing and realized she was more a country mouse, she quit her job, went back to the Bloomsburg area, tended bar (where we met the first time, it's not often your pretty bartender uses the word "congeal" and that just added to the allure of that almost copper main-I was an eager customer) and got a BSN. She tried desperately to get a job in NEPA, but eventually moved down 81. Now for the past 20 plus years, she's been a nurse. Two degrees, but constantly dealing with non-compliant diabetics and drug seekers, relatives eager to show how they care by being demanding and hostile and yes on occasion, stinky poop. She misses every other Christmas and Thanksgiving. One year, she was scheduled for 2-12 hour shifts, back to back, Christmas Eve and Christmas day.

I went to Penn State with three major choices: Mechanical Engineering, Forestry and Accounting. In Freshman orientation, I was confident that I'd be the one of three remaining next year. Little did I know that when they assigned problems 1-39, I wasn't so smart that I could do the first three or five and "get it". I really didn't see a lot of employment ads for foresters, so I started taking accounting. But when I took finance and accounting, my grades shot up. I just loved the material. I didn't have to study, it was recreational reading. I went from accounting to finance to economics.

But then reality set in. When I graduated, there weren't all the banking jobs I thought there'd be, and they paid crap. I was offered $9500 in the fall of 1984 as a credit analyst trainee. I thought whoopee-freaking doo, a whole 1.30 over the 3.35 minimum. Given the decades long consolidation of banking, glad not to be there.

After I got out, I sold floor tile, then insurance, tried to manage a Burger King. Then Prudential called in 1989. I thought this was my forever job. I did accounting, IT QA and pension compliance. Once they announced the demutualization, people started getting let go. I joined them in 1999. If being an econ major is unfocused, being a pension analyst is a mile deep and an inch wide.

Without knowing how I'd ever get the experience, I took the CPA. A succession of different jobs-one ended when the business was sold in 2002 courtesy of 9/11. Since I interviewed in the WTC in 2000, all in all losing a job was ok. I took a job as a healthcare auditor in 2002, and by chance ended up rediscovering my old girlfriend from 1992-1993. I ended up doing a stint at KPMG, but that's not a job for 40 year olds or the newly married. So I went back to government, and it was lucky I did because in 2006, my apparently health 38 year old sister had an internal hemorrhage and died. I wouldn't have been able to help my family-and my grandmother would lose her other granddaughter in 2011, before she passed ten years ago.

I "only" graduated with $12K in debt, and I still remember writing a check for $136.53 every month. My first year at Penn State: $1416 for the whole year. Today, it's ten to fifteen times that much-depending on campus, etc.

My coworker was a credit union president pulling in enough to raise three kids with a stay-at-home wife. He lost his job, and ended making a fraction of what he was making. His wife has an education degree and to make ends meet, she was on a production line. She's doing something else now, but it's still not great money.

I look at success now much differently than I did when I stepped out of Rec Hall in May of 1985, aspiring "yuppie scum". I thought I'd get an MBA (I did, but only because Pru paid) and become a CFO some place.

My niece is a college freshman. Her Dad's employer just gave him a plant closure notice. I can help her with her tuition. Dumb luck kept me from being worm food. I'm doing ok.