We just bought one truckload (160 ties) of plastic ties. Although not cheap (about twice the cost of wood industrial grade ties) we elected to try these because our right of way is subject to a lot of moisture. The industrial grade wood ties are rotting out in 10-12 years. Based on experience by UP, these seem like they may be the answer for us right now. They are made of recycled plastic and weigh around 250 lbs. They look a lot like wood ties.
Is anyone else on here using plastic? If so, what is your experience so far?

Fla Gulf Coast RR Museum
hrvideo@mindspring.com

Jim, thanks for the update on plastic ties, this is the first info I have seen by anyone that purchased a small number of them. These are definitely something the folks discussing shop floors might consider. Another alternative might be "mine ties", I don't have a price on these either. The mine tie is a steel formed channel with rail clips that sledge hammer into postion nicely holding the gauge and just begging to be imbedded in concrete ( you can weld up some pretty mean rebar configurations to them). Sorry to bring this up but the thread was getting pretty long

lamontdc@adelphia.net

http://www.orhf.org
gkamp@mwaarchitects.com

As an architect, I feel I must make a response to the idea to connecting metal sleepers directly to in-slab rebar of a shop floor.

This sounds like a recipe for signifcant cracking in the concrete slab. This arrangement over time and repetitive loadings, would likely cause complete degradation of the slab. The primary purpose of sleepers is to transfer the weight of rail vehicles to the ground, not laterally to an adjacent, and mind you, non-ductile, concrete slab.

If you were to utilize the sleepers with rebar wholly encased in the concrete of thickened spread footing for the length of the track and consider approiate jointing to the adjacent salb, that may make some more sense.

So here's a safety tip that may save you and your organization some time and money...

Talk to your local structural engineer about things like slab isolation, live loads, expansion joints and control joints before welding any exposed steel of track/sleeper system directly to steel embedded as reinforcement for a concrete floor system.

ps
I am really excited to see how these plastic ties perform, as wood ties are not the most environmentally sustainable products. "Recycled plastic" sure sounds better the "old growth" and "cresote." Please keep us informed, as the environmental impacts of railroading effect how some of consider design and operation for the rail community.



http://www.orhf.org
gkamp@mwaarchitects.com

Back in (I believe) the spring of 1999, the Black River & Western RR (a tourist line and freight shortline in NJ) installed a number of plastic ties at several locations along its line. This was for testing purposes conducted by Rutgers University and a "plastic lumber" manufacturer called Polywood Inc. As far as I know the ties are still in place and performing OK.

See below link for info about Polywood ties (BTW, the lead photo is from the BR&W).

Regards,
Jim Robinson


Polywood ties

> If you were to utilize the sleepers with
> rebar wholly encased in the concrete of
> thickened spread footing for the length of
> the track and consider approiate jointing to
> the adjacent salb, that may make some more
> sense.

Right on target. Please explain how it is expected that a concrete slab; poured over somewhat flexible sleepers, somewhat keyed to the rail, poured to the rail will have higher strength?


lamontdc@adelphia.net

We have a bundle of them CT Antique Machinery and plan to use them in a crossing in the next year or so. They appear to be std. gauge, but should work really well for 36" gauge.

They are rust colored and I am told that they are made from old soda bottles...

We obtained a sample about 2 years ago. Cost, looks and physical properties did not compare favorably to the Azobe ties that we use now.

New Orleans rebuilt their streetcar line with Azobe ties. They are almost impervious to rot or bugs and, though they look like mahogany when installed, they weather to a gray color that looks like any other untreated wood that has been out in the elements. The disadvantage to them is that they are so strong and resist spike pull-out so well that you really don't want to redo too much. We have done some relaying of rail and pulling the spikes is time consuming.

Disposal is not a problem for two reasons: 1) None have gone bad so there are none to dispose of, 2) They are 100% natural untreated wood. We have been using these for 14 years and while IG and grade creosoted ties are beginning to show their age, the Azobes are like new. Sometimes a tie will get a surface problem - kind of like acne - but below the surface (1/4") the tie is solid as a rock.

We pay about $53 each delivered on a quantity of 500. We expect to be money ahead every year starting in about 3 years since we have not been able to get more than 16 years average life out of creosoted ties - grade or IG.

We do not get a commission on these ties. They just work really, really, well and from an historical/practical standpoint they are as good as it gets.



linnwm@supernet.com

> We pay about $53 each delivered on a
> quantity of 500. We expect to be money ahead
> every year starting in about 3 years since
> we have not been able to get more than 16
> years average life out of creosoted ties -
> grade or IG.

Linn:

What is the defect that the creosoted ties are showing? Rot, plate-cutting, spike-kill??? It does seem that "modern" treated ties don't have the creosote retention that one sees in older ties (from the 50s and 60s). We have a number of ties inserted in a 1983 tie program that are starting to rot hollow, spike kill, etc. As I recall, your track is well-ballasted and drained, so I doubt that's the problem......

Are the Azobe ties 6 x 8 x 8.5'? How are you spiking them?

Howard

Railroad Museum of New England
hpincus@mindspring.com

With all the interesting posts about plastic ties, I'm wondering what thoughts might be about concrete ties as another alternative. They're becoming a standard thing in our area on the UPRR mainline, and the big CXT plant that makes them near here is turning them out by the gazillions.

The basic problem with creosoted ties is that they are made of new growth wood which does not weather as well as more mature timber. IG ties are notorious for lack of creosote penetration. Grade ties are usually better in that they are required to have a certain amount. Many times the ties split and water is admitted to the interior where there may or may not be creosote. Most of our ties rot from the inside out. Many are spike killed and very few last long enough to be severely plate cut.

The azobe ties must be drilled prior to spiking. We actually drill hardwood ties as well when we have the time because we have found the spikes will hold better since the wood fibers are only partially deflected by the spike and tend to resist pull-out better. The only down side to azobes is that the spikes will not come out and if you insert an azobe in a stretch of "loose" track, it will act like a gauge bar and the spikes will have a tendency to cut. When we rebuild a section of track we usually put azobes every other or every third tie. This is a compromise to keep initial costs in check.

To keep our costs down we use 6 x 8 x 8"6". You can get them in any size and you pay by the board foot. We use IG or grade ties on sidings and yard tracks, again to keep initial costs down. Whenever possible we will replace ties with azobes so eventually we will have them everywhere.



linnwm@supernet.com

I am not familiar with concrete ties from personal experience so someone else may want to jump in here. From what I understand concrete ties are rather delicate when it comes to bending stresses. They require a solid sub-grade and consistent solid support under the rail. These conditions usually don't exist in shortline railroading to the degree they do on class I main tracks. Wood is very forgiving in that it is flexible and single ties are easily replaced. I would imagine that plastic ties have many of the same qualities as the wood.



linnwm@supernet.com

Some of the stuff I have read on concrete ties is that the the tamping is different from wood in that a heavy emphasis is placed on the area under the rail to prevent rocking which will snap a concrete tie. Another thing is that the ballast will not lock against a concrete tie as it does against a wood tie and of course they shatter at the first derailment.

lamontdc@adelphia.net

> Some of the stuff I have read on concrete
> ties is that the the tamping is different
> from wood in that a heavy emphasis is placed
> on the area under the rail to prevent
> rocking which will snap a concrete tie.
> Another thing is that the ballast will not
> lock against a concrete tie as it does
> against a wood tie and of course they
> shatter at the first derailment.

I forgot to add that I do believe (Gary correct me if I am wrong) that Kenosha is concrete ties in the grassed areas and steel ties in the crossings. Definitely designed for minimum maintenence.


lamontdc@adelphia.net