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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:23 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
Posts: 915
Location: Philadelphia, PA
If the front and rear engines on the French locomotive are connected, then Nos. 2 and 3 drivers must have crank axles. It also appears the driveshaft from No. 2 axle controls both cylinders' valve gear on that side. I suppose the big boxes over the cylinders and the pipe connecting them carry steam from the HP to the LP cylinders.

Based on the John Crosby story, his engineer did not have trouble getting the train started with a T1, although Crosby said he did so carefully. I suspect lifting a Philadelphia train of P70's out of Manhattan Transfer with an E6s 4-4-2 had to be done carefully as well.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:20 am 

Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:55 pm
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filmteknik wrote:
It’s great that there are places where it can run but the only true measure of success will be around 100 MPH. Can that be done anywhere besides the NEC?

Good question. Not 100 MPH, but track with Automatic Train Stop used to allow 90 MPH (e.g. the Santa Fe across Kansas), I wonder if PTC, which is essentially a version of ATS, allows for 90 as well.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:09 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
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Location: Back in NE Ohio
filmteknik wrote:
Before applying various updates they need to duplicate the original and see what it can do in the hands of a skilled, careful engineer. Maybe it won’t need any fixes.

It’s great that there are places where it can run but the only true measure of success will be around 100 MPH. Can that be done anywhere besides the NEC?


DOT/FRA test center in Pueblo. Anyone got a spare $250K to make it happen?


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:54 pm
Posts: 140
filmteknik wrote:
Before applying various updates they need to duplicate the original and see what it can do in the hands of a skilled, careful engineer. Maybe it won’t need any fixes.

It’s great that there are places where it can run but the only true measure of success will be around 100 MPH. Can that be done anywhere besides the NEC?

They plan on taking it to the High Speed Test Site in Pueblo, CO on completion.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:05 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:24 pm
Posts: 71
I attended their open House last year and the speaker was asked about Pueblo Test Track and he said they have already been in contact with the Test Engineers about requirements. It was determined they meet current requirements as designed. They also said they have a sponsor to cover the $250,000 testing fee plus transportation to/from Colorado. They are willing to go on a flat car if running under their own power is not an option.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:03 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:42 am
Posts: 277
Location: Wyoming, DE
Hello,

You wonder what prerequisites the test track requires on a ‘new’ locomotive. Yes it is heavily based on the original design to what degree feasible. Will it dynamically operate and track through curves equal to the original? Will they require X number of miles logged before arriving or is that their fundamental purpose?

Definitely a more limited and confined risk as compared to the Tornado’s 100 mph proof run on network rail in 2017, done unannounced overnight-early morning before the commuter train schedule heated up. It had been road proven for over 7 years by that time.

Commissioning? What will /does FRA require to approve a new locomotive design to be certified for regular service?

It will be an interesting process to see unfold.

Regards,

Randy


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1956
filmteknik wrote:
Before applying various updates they need to duplicate the original and see what it can do in the hands of a skilled, careful engineer. Maybe it won’t need any fixes.

It’s great that there are places where it can run but the only true measure of success will be around 100 MPH. Can that be done anywhere besides the NEC?


According to Baldwin, peak DBHP is about 65-70 MPH, so what's the need for 100MPH?

Attachment:
1945 T-1 Drawbar HP Curve from 2nd Qtr 1945 Magazine-2.jpg
1945 T-1 Drawbar HP Curve from 2nd Qtr 1945 Magazine-2.jpg [ 233.92 KiB | Viewed 1025 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:52 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
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Location: Back in NE Ohio
I got the impression they'd like to officially try and break Mallard's record.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:22 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:15 pm
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PaulWWoodring wrote:
I got the impression they'd like to officially try and break Mallard's record.


Well it was one of their ambitions they originally listed when the project was first announced.


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:25 pm 

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:54 pm
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superheater wrote:

According to Baldwin, peak DBHP is about 65-70 MPH, so what's the need for 100MPH?

Why did we go to the moon? Or ascend Everest?


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 11:54 pm
Posts: 1956
mcgrath618 wrote:
superheater wrote:

According to Baldwin, peak DBHP is about 65-70 MPH, so what's the need for 100MPH?

Why did we go to the moon? Or ascend Everest?


The poster I was responding to made this statement:

"the only true measure of success"

I submit that completing the project and being able to run it at the sedate speed of 40mph will be a success.

Perhaps a personal story will illustrate the issue:

There was a time when repeated trips to the doctor to deal with back spasms caused by overexuberance in the gym produced this inquiry:

Question: Hey do you know the difference between destructive and non-destructive testing?

Answer: Yeah, sure, I started out as an engineering major.

Response: Good, guess which one you are doing.

As a donor, I would sure hate to see it subjected to potentially destructive testing. A cardinal rule of risk management is that you never voluntarily risk a catastrophe (a catastrophe is defined as something that causes the destruction of the risk bearing entity-the word is often misused).

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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:02 am 

Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 am
Posts: 153
I believe that computer aided design and more specifically finite analysis have proven very successful in solving engineering problems. I'm sure the folks at the T1 Trust will know the failure limits and stay below them.

Considering the anecdotal evidence from the original service time of the T1's, Mallard's record should have transfered to the US back in the 1940's, but there was no interest from railroad management.

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:20 pm 
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Posts: 2387
Location: Pac NW, via North Florida
Steamguy73 wrote:
PaulWWoodring wrote:
I got the impression they'd like to officially try and break Mallard's record.


Well it was one of their ambitions they originally listed when the project was first announced.
Thanks, I thought I was imagining reading that somewhere.
Of course there is anecdotal evidence (at best) that PRR crews already broke Mallard's record with T1s on more than one occasion during their original service.
There are those who claim that the Germans broke it as well before WW2 (on level track, no less, and without the damage to the loco that Mallard suffered while descending Stoke Bank that fateful day) but in each case there is no solid evidence to support the record was actually broken.
One thing's for sure, though; if they took the T1 to Pueblo, there'd be very strong evidence to support it if they made a go at the record.
But as "superheater" correctly pointed out here, they'd really be risking what I heard an aviation consultant describe as "rapid, unplanned disassembly" while running a design that hasn't been operated in decades, by people who would be doing so for the first time (as I can't imagine they'll have a former PRR hogger who ran T-1s in the cab with them at the time, though that would so cool in a foamer's perspective).
Just like Tornado going for her 100MPH record (which I think was the first time any steam loco has gone that fast since, what, the 60s?), 5550 will need to get more than a few miles under wheels until it would be smart to go for it.
But like any steely-eye foamer, I hope they do go for it and unseat Mallard from the throne of steam speed.
We're in a time when nothing is really outside the realm of possibility. A decade or more ago, how much would any of you have bet we'd see a running UP 4000 (or the C&O mallet at Western Maryland) again, or the various new-built steam engines currently running around various corners of the globe?


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:05 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
Col. Howard G. Hill USAR (Ret.), who designed WWII steam locomotives for USATC, reported riding N&W 611 between Petersburg and Norfolk at 100 mph+ in each diresction on an October 18, 1959 fantrip. (December 1964 Trains)

611 didn't run in the 1960's. UP 844 did, is capable of 100 mph and UP had cab signals making 100 legal, but I don't know of it happening. RDG T-1's have the same cylinder and driver dimensions as an N&W J (27x32; 70"), but the fastest I rode a Ramble was 75 mph, track speed on the New York Branch.

When PRR leased N&W 610 in 1944 it ran in on N&W for a month after the rebuild from an unstreamlined J-1 to a fully streamlined J. Then it went to Crestline to show what it could do. Even with the running in 610 had a valve gear failure on PRR.

Franklin Railway Supply had a warranty on the Poppet valves themselves up to 125 mph, but PRR kept breaking them. T1's had speedometers but not speed recorders. Franklin had someone ride T1 powered trains and time them. Supposedly, late trains routinely exceeded 125 mph to recover time.

Incidentally EMD E7A's 5900-5901 had no road failures in their first 6 months in 1946 and ran every day making every schedulled run working one side of the Red Arrow Hbg-Detroit or return. Monthly inspections were done during the day at Harrisburg between runs.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: PRR 5550 Update: Boiler Assembly
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:54 pm
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EJ Berry wrote:
Col. Howard G. Hill USAR (Ret.), who designed WWII steam locomotives for USATC, reported riding N&W 611 between Petersburg and Norfolk at 100 mph+ in each diresction on an October 18, 1959 fantrip. (December 1964 Trains)

611 didn't run in the 1960's. UP 844 did, is capable of 100 mph and UP had cab signals making 100 legal, but I don't know of it happening. RDG T-1's have the same cylinder and driver dimensions as an N&W J (27x32; 70"), but the fastest I rode a Ramble was 75 mph, track speed on the New York Branch.

When PRR leased N&W 610 in 1944 it ran in on N&W for a month after the rebuild from an unstreamlined J-1 to a fully streamlined J. Then it went to Crestline to show what it could do. Even with the running in 610 had a valve gear failure on PRR.

Franklin Railway Supply had a warranty on the Poppet valves themselves up to 125 mph, but PRR kept breaking them. T1's had speedometers but not speed recorders. Franklin had someone ride T1 powered trains and time them. Supposedly, late trains routinely exceeded 125 mph to recover time.

Incidentally EMD E7A's 5900-5901 had no road failures in their first 6 months in 1946 and ran every day making every schedulled run working one side of the Red Arrow Hbg-Detroit or return. Monthly inspections were done during the day at Harrisburg between runs.

Phil Mulligan


Not to hijack the thread, but recently I believe Bob Krieger formerly with the UP Steam crew stated that 844 was well north of 90 coming back from Portland in 2009. And I've heard that in the 60's and 70's that 844 made time north of 100 on multiple occasions when it was still handled by the operating department before there was an official steam crew.

There is a thread on railfanning that involves Steam Speed Myths, worth the read.


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