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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:15 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
In the lightweight era, cars with Master Rooms had showers attached to the Master Rooms. These would include 4 PRR 1938 observation cars for the Broadway and Liberty Limiteds, and 2 1949 observation cars for the Broadway Limited, each with 2 Master Rooms. Also there were 2 1938 midtrain lounge cars for the Broadway Limited, and 2 1949 midtrain lounge cars for the Broadway Limited, each with a shower bath. NYC had 4 1938 observation cars for the 20th Century Limited, each with one Master Room, and two 1949 midtrain lounge cars for the 20th Century Limited, each with a shower bath. Southern Railway had 4 midtrain sleeper lounge cars each with one Master Room for the Crescent Limited. Finally, the California Zephyr consortium (CB&Q, D&RGW, WP) had 7 dome observation cars, each with 1 Drawing Room with a shower.

Phil Mulligan


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:34 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Bucureşti, Capitala României / Bucharest, Capital of Romania
There was a train with a car intentended to have a playspace for children. It was a train destined to Mid-West - Mid-North. I've seen the picture, but can't remember the name of the company that intended to operate that train.

Did "Amtrack" used this type of bogie: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drehgeste ... nden-Deutz
, because according to wikipedia, it did.
Fun fact: most rail fans would think that double deck cars are of German origins, but in fact the French invented them. They looked like this: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelsto ... eriale.JPG
Well, looking on the German wikipedia I found that in Rome had deck streetcars too! When you look for some piece of information and you find other intresting stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:19 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
Amtrak's Superliner I cars have Minden-Deutz bogies of the MD76 type, which have been adapted for increased axle loads.

C&O's Chessie train was to have a 32-seat Family-Chair car that had a childrens' playroom and theatre, kitchen and diaper-changing room. The proposed route was Cincinnati-Washington with some cars to Newport News instead of Washington. The train was built but never ran and the three Family-Chair cars were sold to another RR and converted to other types of passenger cars.

In the 1830's some US passenger cars were double-deck, based on stage coaches of the day.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:27 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Bucureşti, Capitala României / Bucharest, Capital of Romania
1) And after that why didn't they used any longer double deck cars up untill dome cars arrived?
2) Intresting fact with the "Miden Deutz" bogies. Romanian passanger cars made up from 1964 (single deck; we made in the '80's some double deckers, but they where a failure as far as I heared) used "M.D." bogies, but 33 type.
3) Do you have any images with that 32 seat family car... 'cause I can't find any.
4) Did any early air-condition car (ice, steam ejector, "Waneka" engine, belt driven generator) remained with the possibility to open the window?
5) I can't find the advertising drawing (I think it was for "Great Northen", but might had been other company with a livery that resembled) that had 2 boys talking to the engenier and 2 women on bicycles (the women had trouses!);
6) Here are some intresting films: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcRLugrGjBw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgjy2jcFvqw
It's intrestring that Diesel (or at least '30's-'50's Diesel-electrics) where not as powrefoul as big steam locomotives. In Europe it wasn't that way, but here steam locomotives I don't think where ever so big as U.S.A. ones, maybe with some excpetions.
I can't find on the internet (have to upload the images, but I will do it another time) a "General Electric" proposal for the Moffat Tunnel.
Here are some old electrification proposals: https://www.trains.com/ctr/railroads/ra ... proposals/

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2717
Location: Northern Illinois
Quote:
4) Did any early air-condition car (ice, steam ejector, "Waneka" engine, belt driven generator) remained with the possibility to open the window?


That would be Waukesha an engine builder located in the Wisconsin city of the same name that built self contained, propane fueled A/C units for passenger cars.

Since the purpose of air conditioning is to lower the relative humidity, opening the windows would defeat the purpose of the A/C. Any older cars I'm familiar with that were retrofitted with A/C had their storm windows permanently sealed shut.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:53 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Bucureşti, Capitala României / Bucharest, Capital of Romania
I got the book from the attachaments. The German version would probably had a better printing qualty, but I cound't have had understeand a lot from it, since I don't speak German. French and Romanian, on the other hand, are related, so I can understeand more. Oh, the book is literally heavy!
The book mentions stuff from U.S.A too. The diagrams for some U.S.A. locomotives are shown... too bad that not for all. I've noticed there that some of the U.S.A. locomotives had longitudinal mounted engines, some transversal mounted ones. Big engines... I think GG 1 one was the 1st modern style electric locomotive, that had smaller engines suspeneded on the axles, not big engines (motors) like the old style locomotives.
The book show also U.S.A. catenaries for electric railroads.
Although the book is about electric traction (it reffers to all electric rail traction, including trams (streetcars), subways/elevated urban rails), it does mentions Gasoline-Electric vehicles (no mention of the Diesel-Electric yet). I've seen one picture of a "Minneapolis..." self-propeld Gasoline-Electric railcar. Sharp nose, long car. What car it was?


Attachments:
e-seefehlner-traction-electrique-manuel-sur-la-theorie-et-l-application-de-la-traction-electrique-aux-chemins-de-fer_362472-1.jpg
e-seefehlner-traction-electrique-manuel-sur-la-theorie-et-l-application-de-la-traction-electrique-aux-chemins-de-fer_362472-1.jpg [ 147.56 KiB | Viewed 1132 times ]
e-seefehlner-traction-electrique-manuel-sur-la-theorie-et-l-application-de-la-traction-electrique-aux-chemins-de-fer_362472.jpg
e-seefehlner-traction-electrique-manuel-sur-la-theorie-et-l-application-de-la-traction-electrique-aux-chemins-de-fer_362472.jpg [ 163.98 KiB | Viewed 1132 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:07 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
First we need to differentiate between an "engine" and a "motor."

In the USA the word "engine" can refer to a complete locomotive, for example an order to Train "No. 28 Engine 5901," where 5901 is the locomotive leading the train.

The word "engine" also refers to a gas or diesel device producing power. This is its usual use. It is NEVER used to refer to an electric motor. These are always called "motors." In fact electric locomotives are sometimes referred to as motors.

As to electric motors, even the earliest by Daft and Van Depoele had the motor shaft perpendicular to the rails. Sprague's 1888 Richmond, Va. successful trolley (tram) operation had the motors perpendicular to the rails. It was so successful that a USA diesel-electric locomotive built today will have Sprague's design of motor mount.

On railroad locomotives, some early motors were too large to mount between the wheels, and were mounted on the locomotive frame and powered the train by side rods. PRR's DD1 and the Swiss and Austrian Krokodil locomotives are this type. Here's the Wikipedia page on the DD1. There's a photo of the running gear and traction motor installation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylva ... _class_DD1

GG1's have an unusual motor arrangement where the motors are paired and together drive a quill through a gear drive, which is a hollow shaft that surrounds the axle, and the quill drives the axle through spring cups. This allows the motors to be fully sprung, improving the ride. New Haven's EP-2 locomotives of 1919 had quill drive, 15 years before the first GG1.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:37 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 2717
Location: Northern Illinois
Quote:
I've seen one picture of a "Minneapolis..." self-propeld Gasoline-Electric railcar. Sharp nose, long car. What car it was?


What you describe is undoubtedly a McKeen motor car. These were very early self propelled passenger cars powered by gasoline engines directly geared to the drive axle. They were only moderately successful. Gasoline powered cars with electric drives quickly proved to be superior. Union Pacific had a close relationship with the McKeen company (McKeen was a U.P. employee) and had maybe the largest fleet of the cars, all were retired or re-powered by WWII, with some rebuilt as gas-electrics lasting into the fifties.

More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKeen_Motor_Car_Company

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:12 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Bucureşti, Capitala României / Bucharest, Capital of Romania
@ EJ Berry : thanks for the Lingual info. Is good to know how to use the correct words.
The sprung motors are used it today's locomotives or are a thing of the past?
EP-2 offered a better ride then the other locomotives?
DD-1 I think haves a diagram into the book.
The Richmond streetcars where the standard in the industry I think. 2 axle streetcars in Bucharest used the same configuration. The 4 axles ones, different configurations. Pitty that there are no more streetcars in Richmond.
What an intresting picture: https://www.flickr.com/photos/vcucommons/16836087622


@ Dennis Storzek :
I will take a look into the book.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:16 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
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Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
There have been a few modern streetcars with motor shafts parallel to the rails, 1 double ended motor per 4 wheel truck.


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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:28 pm 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
Modern diesel electric locomotives still use the motor mounting system Sprague used in his Richmond installation. Streetcars in North America took a diverging route with the development of the PPC car in the thirties, which used motors with their shafts at right angles to the axles and right angle gearboxes for the connection, one motor on each side of the truck pivot, but I've never seen a discussion of the advantages of this system. It persists in rapid transit (subway) cars that use PCC style trucks (Chicago is one large user).

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2022 8:55 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
The PCC (Presidents' Conference Committee) streetcar was developed in the 1930's and does use traction motors that are parallel with the rails.

I believe the purpose of this was to use modern (1930's) motors that were smaller, lighter and rotated faster to produce greater horsepower. To reduce the high motor speed and reduce noise a PCC car uses a drive shaft (also making the motors fully suspended) similar to a rear wheel drive automobile, with hypoid gears.

The Czechoslovakian firm, Tatra, built cars with PCC trucks for many Eastern European operators.

Note the "Presidents" in PCC refers to the Presidents of streetcar operating companies, not the President of the US.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:24 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Bucureşti, Capitala României / Bucharest, Capital of Romania
Oh, that system of automobile like transmision, I found it described in a Swiss "B.B.C." ("Brown, Bovery & Cie.") magazine.
The P.C.C. Czech made streetcars (I know what Presidents they ment) are in Bucharest too. When I was about 20 I've noticed the similiarities between the bogies of the P.C.C. sreetcars and of the 'Tatra' ones, but didn't made the connection at that time. The 'Tatra' streetcars have 2 big minuses:
1) Eating a lot of electricity;
2) A general P.C.C. problem: they can't mentain a constant speed and on interurban routes, this can be a problem.
Otherway, they are really fast.

U.S.A. gave the standard for streetcars for some decades.
In Europeanen railways, U.S.A. wheren't the standard. But "N.OH.A.B." made buldog nose locomotives using U.S.A. made engines. They where exported to neibghouring Hungary (but U.S.S.R. sayed: stop)... maybe I can see one there. I had at my T.T. scale toy train, the D.S.B. (Danish State Railways) livery. The Swedish (oh, Bucharest - Budapest, Swedish - Swiss) made some electric buldognose locomotives too.
In Romania we got in 1918? some Consolidation locomotives made by "Baldwin Locomotive Works". Some of the Consolidation type (class 140.000 here, French and Romanian notification are giving the axle number, so in U.S.A. they would be 2-8-0) where made by the Czech company "Škoda".

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:20 am 

Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:47 pm
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Location: Philadelphia, PA
The Baldwin steam locomotives are the US Army "Pershing" class 2-8-0's built 1917 and later to meet European clearances. After the war, some stayed in Europe. Romania bought new locomotives from Baldwin and Montreal. Despite no pilot, hook and loop couplers and buffers, they still look North American.

As to diesels, it seems the larger countries built their own locomotives, no matter how poorly they ran.

NOHAB, of Sweden, was licensed by EMD to build locomotives with EMD components and they were very popular with countries that did not build their own locomotives. Even Hungary bought some NOHAB locomotives, until the Soviets stepped in and forced them to buy Soviet-built locomotives.

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 Post subject: Re: A few questions
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:42 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2020 1:51 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Bucureşti, Capitala României / Bucharest, Capital of Romania
Well, sir, you do know a lot!
So in Romania we had Consolidation locomotives also Made in Canada?
Romania pissed the Soviets when it started to manufacture it's own Diesel-Electric locomotives.

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