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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:54 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1142
Location: Pacific, MO
Why would the UP apply for waivers on the PTC? Other groups are trying to figure out how to comply and it is doubtful they would be granted a waiver.
Is Ed involved with any of the groups or committees that are important to the steam industry like NBIC,RSAC,ASME or FRA? NBIC has done a lot of updating and work to help steam groups today.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:05 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 152
Frisco1522 wrote:
Why would the UP apply for waivers on the PTC? Other groups are trying to figure out how to comply and it is doubtful they would be granted a waiver.
Is Ed involved with any of the groups or committees that are important to the steam industry like NBIC,RSAC,ASME or FRA? NBIC has done a lot of updating and work to help steam groups today.



Positive train control has been a farce from the beginning. They said it is about saving lives yet how often do two trains have head on collisions? Once every few years if that. How many people are killed? Maybe four. Yet there was over 2,000 accidents at railroad crossings resulting in 274 fatalities last year. If the Government was really concerned about saving lives it should have put laws into putting those billions into eliminating railroad crossings. We lost a lot of railroad history with PTC.

In regards to the UP steam program. Where on earth are you supposed to put a couple of good sized electrical cabinets on a steam locomotive to house the electronics for PTC? I also doubt the program would even work with a steam locomotive since there is no electrical system except for the generator which runs the lights. PTC really isn't much different then the 1920's era pulse code cab signals which the 844 is already equipped with. Unfortunately this is not used on the entire system.

It would make much more sense to simply require steam locomotives running on the main line, be equipped with a modern locomotive that is PTC equipped running behind it.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:41 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 10:50 pm
Posts: 469
To answer Don, my guess is that the basis for UP's claim is that it will be their own locomotives operating on their own lines essentially in captive service in a highly controlled environment.

To answer the second, and I'm certainly no expert, but I believe the prominent mainline operators who are working on developing steam-friendly systems are working towards virtual "plug-n-play" type systems which would either be mounted in a weather tight compartment in the tender or trailing tool car.

Others much more well versed on the subject are in invited to add to the conversation.

Rob Gardner


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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:57 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:37 pm
Posts: 1142
Location: Pacific, MO
Tom F wrote:
Frisco1522 wrote:
Why would the UP apply for waivers on the PTC? Other groups are trying to figure out how to comply and it is doubtful they would be granted a waiver.
Is Ed involved with any of the groups or committees that are important to the steam industry like NBIC,RSAC,ASME or FRA? NBIC has done a lot of updating and work to help steam groups today.



Positive train control has been a farce from the beginning. They said it is about saving lives yet how often do two trains have head on collisions? Once every few years if that. How many people are killed? Maybe four. Yet there was over 2,000 accidents at railroad crossings resulting in 274 fatalities last year. If the Government was really concerned about saving lives it should have put laws into putting those billions into eliminating railroad crossings. We lost a lot of railroad history with PTC.

In regards to the UP steam program. Where on earth are you supposed to put a couple of good sized electrical cabinets on a steam locomotive to house the electronics for PTC? I also doubt the program would even work with a steam locomotive since there is no electrical system except for the generator which runs the lights. PTC really isn't much different then the 1920's era pulse code cab signals which the 844 is already equipped with. Unfortunately this is not used on the entire system.

It would make much more sense to simply require steam locomotives running on the main line, be equipped with a modern locomotive that is PTC equipped running behind it.


And yet it is the "law". Let's see what the FRA has to say.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:00 pm 

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:40 pm
Posts: 822
Tom F wrote:
Positive train control has been a farce from the beginning. They said it is about saving lives yet how often do two trains have head on collisions? Once every few years if that. How many people are killed? Maybe four. Yet there was over 2,000 accidents at railroad crossings resulting in 274 fatalities last year. If the Government was really concerned about saving lives it should have put laws into putting those billions into eliminating railroad crossings. We lost a lot of railroad history with PTC.


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that ship sailed (or that train left the station) a few years ago. There was a designated period for public comment. If you participated in that, good on you. If you didn't, then your opinion is just that, an opinion that carries no weight.

Tom F wrote:
In regards to the UP steam program. Where on earth are you supposed to put a couple of good sized electrical cabinets on a steam locomotive to house the electronics for PTC? I also doubt the program would even work with a steam locomotive since there is no electrical system except for the generator which runs the lights. PTC really isn't much different then the 1920's era pulse code cab signals which the 844 is already equipped with. Unfortunately this is not used on the entire system.


This indicates you may know little about PTC or about today's operating, main-line steam locomotives. PTC does not require "..a couple of good sized electrical cabinets.." it requires one, about the size of a briefcase. And it requires some sophisticated hardware and software that the PTC committee is working on as we speak). And it does require external antenna arrays, which the radical foamer element will add to their list of tool cars, water cars and closed window climate-controlled coaches and the other things they complain about already. I would remind you some steam locomotives today already have a lot of electronics on them that no one would have dreamed of 20 years ago, including GPS, 2-way head-end device, radio, computerized cab signal and train control, and even automatic train stop. The power can come from additional dynamos (some locos already have 2 or 3 to power the electronics they have now) or it can come from a separate system or even be powered from a trailing car.

[quote=Tom F]
It would make much more sense to simply require steam locomotives running on the main line, be equipped with a modern locomotive that is PTC equipped running behind it.[/quote]

Again, as has been explained countless times before, if you do that, then the modern PTC equipped locomotive (read: diesel) MUST be the lead locomotive, with the steam loco behind it. Is that what you want? Probably not, but it is what you will get if solutions are not found.

I think the point being made is that some proactive steam operators have been working this problem for some time now and continue to do so. There are a handful who choose not to participate, even the UP which was until around 2009 VERY active in the groups noted above (and others, such as RPCA), who devote their time and energy to problem prevention and problem solving, not just sitting around complaining.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:20 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:51 pm
Posts: 90
Location: Ipswich, Mass., Phoenix, AZ
"I have no idea why those photos are so massive!"
Maybe they're massive, true, but they're also very very neat! Thanks for posting them.
Ned


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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:08 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:43 am
Posts: 15
[The quote below was with regard to UP's petition to the FRA for a waiver for PTC regulations in regard to UP's steam locomotive excursion program.]

Frisco1522 wrote:
Let's see what the FRA has to say.


Well, the FRA has spoken, and they declined to issue a waiver as UP had requested. But the FRA also pointed out that the UP doesn't need a waiver.

Here is the document link: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D= ... -0070-0004

That document is 3 pages in a PDF. As sometimes documents get moved around, and AFAIK .pdfs can not be posted directly to RYPN, I have also converted that pdf to 3 separate jpgs linked below. (click the images to expand)

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:08 pm 

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:49 pm
Posts: 158
Location: Los Altos, CA
ironeagle2006 wrote:
Why so that way they can have 3 engines on a rotating schedule for the 1472 day inspection program. They can be tearing one down have 2 running.


That makes heaps of sense. If you have 3 steam locomotives to play with, it makes sense to rotate maintenance so two can operate at the same time.

Good to see them planning ahead.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:08 pm 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:49 am
Posts: 262
Location: Cambridgeshire UK
Hi everyone, There has been various rumours and conflicting stories floating around recently about the status of the 3985. Has there been an official word (From UP) about its future with the UP Steam Program? Thanks - David Notarius


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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:24 pm 

Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 10:03 am
Posts: 110
Mind sharing a link or some of these rumors?


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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:51 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:04 pm
Posts: 152
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyJKqbvlNhg

Skip to 43:00 straight from the horses mouth on this one.


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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:23 am 

Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:54 pm
Posts: 289
Tom F wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyJKqbvlNhg

Skip to 43:00 straight from the horses mouth on this one.


I believe that debunks many of the rumors and badmouthing on TO that Mr. Dickens doesn't want to see 3985 run ever again and is doing all he can to make sure 3985 doesn't run.

However, the key phrasing in his presentation at about 43:30 on that video is "if i have my way." What steam lover, Ed Dickens included, doesn't want to see another larger, mainline, articulated steam locomotive run again? Moreover on its home rails operated, owned and maintained by the company that originally owned her.

Even with the deep pockets of UP, money is the key to everything, and justifying restoring and rebuilding another massive articulated steam locomotive, to the same or similar degree as 4014 may not be fiscally feasible for the steam program budget at this time. Remember, 844 was just recently given a 1472 inspection and some running gear work.

I believe (my opinion mind you) that 3985 will most definitely run again, you don't spend tens or hundreds of thousands on parts for an engine that will remain stripped in a roundhouse. Pending that UP's commitment to heritage remains in the ballpark of what it is right now and has been 3985 will get its due time in the shop. The reasonable thing to believe is work will eventually being on 3985 to have at least 2 operating engines as much as possible.

Again, I have no inside information, this is just my simple, hopeful and observant opinion. You are welcome to disagree.

-154


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 Post subject: Re: UP 3985 could be restored 2019 or 2020?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:01 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:49 am
Posts: 262
Location: Cambridgeshire UK
NS6770fan - there is too many rumours, finger pointing and hearsay going around about a lot of restoration projects. Most are unproductive and misleading. I rather read about facts on RYPN than add to the gossip by repeating unconfirmed and distorted stories, some that have already been printed on here. David Notarius


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