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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1429
Location: Youngstown, OH
I have signed up for their book club. I don't have a lot of steam experience and I'm still trying to absorb as much as I can, so it might be educational for me.

I'm pretty much a lurker on their forum. I must admit that they are getting rather technical and deep in their discussions of the engineering involved in the construction of the T1. Its not a foamer group.

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"The shortest and narrowest Railroad in Ohio"


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:26 am 
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Their project provides a good opportunity to provide an educational function that could in turn benefit their fund raising, if they want to do so. Well produced and competently presented programs describing the design and function of steam locomotives are not at all common, I suspect that many groups would be interested in hosting such a presentation.

PC

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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:44 am 

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:24 pm
Posts: 59
I have been sitting watching this group over the past year and read their forums regularly . I am amazed at the amount of engineering going on right now. They are doing a lot of material analysis as well. It is very interesting and I really enjoy watching a group figure it out. It looks like the A1 guys in Britain are helping with the blueprint of how to do it.

They don't seem to be phased with their haters and seem to get more motivated by them. I am optomistic they will break the code and stigma here in USA and actually build it.

I think the book club is a good idea to educate themselves and others on how to do this. (Unless they start reading Tom Sawyer)


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:07 pm 

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:57 pm
Posts: 78
The question I asked when this first arose was, do they have the engineering drawings. From their material, they either have them or know where these are and are getting them by instalments. Credit where it is due, that is a serious step.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:37 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:24 pm
Posts: 59
It looks like they have been able to obtain 500+ original PRR drawings and are adding several dozen more each month. They are getting them from several sources including the State archives. They have posted all of the drawings on their website. I think you have to register to see them.

The frame drawings amazed me. Wow.

It looks like they have begun to convert the original drawing to 3d CAD. They are asking for help from engineers on their website to convert drawings.


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:33 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1429
Location: Youngstown, OH
I participated in the book club discussion the other night. I enjoyed it, learned a few things and will be back for the next one.

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J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad
"The shortest and narrowest Railroad in Ohio"


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:31 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:24 am
Posts: 57
love the concept and Idea of this, but this is where it stops for me

Where the hell are you going to run this if it does get built? (nothing worse than a 7.5 million dollar plus Paperweight)

DO NOT FORGET that the driving forces behind the tornado, they had the "where you going to run it problem solved", the UK government owes the rails

the tornado is so successful that there are building another British Model locomotive from the ground up yet again, but again they have proven to the government it can be handled safely for the British public

Copied from Wikipedia:

The P2 Steam Locomotive Company[edit]

In 2010, the A1 Steam Locomotive Trust, who were responsible for the construction of 60163 Tornado, announced plans to hold a feasibility study into building a new P2 class locomotive, which would be numbered as 2007.[30]

The feasibility study was officially launched in October 2011 and was be broken into 3 stages.[citation needed]} The first stage involved creating an electronic model of a steam engine for track dynamic analysis; Tornado was used as the basis for this modelling, together with track position data supplied by Network Rail - Tornado was fitted with accelerometers during its testing- the data from which provided a basis to validate the modelling data and assumptions against.[31] The second and third stages are to involve creating a computer model of a P2, and then analysing modifications to the design using the computer software. Modelling data for the P2 design and a modified design with a LNER Class V2 type pony truck was published in early 2013. The rail-dynamics software used was Delta Rail's 'VAMPIRE' product.[31] The computer modelling showed acceptable dynamics and the project to build No. 2007 was officially launched in September 2013 at the A1 Convention with a seven to ten year construction timetable.[31]

The locomotive is said to share 70% commonality on parts with Tornado including the boiler and tender.[32] Modern modifications to the original design include roller bearings (also featured on Tornado) and an all-welded, all-steel boiler; the final build may utilise Caprotti valve gear rather than the Lentz or Walchaerts types fitted to the originals.[31] In most other respects and appearance the built 'No.2007' will match that of No.2001 Cock o' the North.[31]

On November 14, 2013 the P2 Steam Locomotive Company (P2SLC) announced that the name of its new P2 would be ‘Prince of Wales’, in honour of HRH Prince Charles, The Prince of Wales' 65th birthday.[33] Construction began in May 2014 with the locomotives's frames being cut at Tata Steel's Scunthorpe works.[34]

The project cost is estimated at £5,000,000.[33]

Doncaster P2 Locomotive Trust[edit]

The Doncaster P2 Locomotive Trust (Registered Charity Number 1149835), plans to build a replica P2 of the design as modified in 1938; using Gresley motion, Walschaerts valve gear, and a LNER A4 style 'Bugatti' streamlined front.[35] The locomotive's frames were cut in April 2014 at Tata Steel's, Wednesfield works.[36]



you are not going to run this at 10mph if it is built

and at 5 million pounds that converts to approx. 7.5 million US DOLLARS

I myself work wayyyyy to hard for my money and will not send out a DIME unless there is a Mainline trackage agreement to run this beast - nevermind making it reliable and safe for the public and a real PLAN

why is it 7 out of 10 times there is, "NO PLAN" or "here is the plan", and no foul through

You need a team of 4 or 5 Corp managers in the industry to really take a look at this With proof of concept, and try to get them to manage said project and not the usual suspects (no offence to anyone) - IE some class I Railroad involvement, and I'd bet when said and done this will end where it started with CAD DRAWNINGS

"focus on what is preserved and put the attention to that!"

ultimately more people will get to enjoy those efforts than to "blow an excessively large nut" on one project

that few if any will get to enjoy!

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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:09 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:19 am
Posts: 5746
Location: southeastern USA
Problem solved: run it in England.

dave

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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:14 am 

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:29 pm
Posts: 1429
Location: Youngstown, OH
Christopher S., please tell me with certainty where 765 will be running in 20 years? Even Fort Wayne does not know. Nobody knows. So why bother raising money for its next rebuild? After all they don't have signed contracts in hand for trips that will run two decades from now and in your world that is unacceptable.

If the T1 project continues to gain steam, it will take that long to get it finished. So even if Wick Mooreman himself said today that when the T1 is finished it can run over Horseshoe Curve as many times as it likes, by the time the loco is ready NS will be on its third CEO after Mooreman, and under no obligation to follow through.

I'm sorry, but this tired old "where will they run it" retort keeps appearing and it is a rather meaningless issue when dealing with a constantly changing industry and a long lead time. Any number of positive or negative things could happen between now and then. Nobody can say with any certainty that any mainline steam will be running in 2035. How many of you predicted that NS would make an abrupt about face on steam and run trips in 2014? Hmmm???

Most railfans and many heritage railroaders unfortunately act as if there is only a finite amount of money to support rail projects, and to restore or build one locomotive means another will go untouched. That zero sum game is such a myopic and small view of the world, and shows that there is a definite lack of imagination and outreach. Why must we always eat our own? Why must we constantly battle each other, instead of supporting one another? Or at the very least try not to cause harm. The true battles are not within the community but with external forces competing for funds. Airplane restoration projects, rails to trails, art museums etc. are the ones we should be competing with for support. In reality, much of the funding for restoration projects does not come from within the rail community, but from outside it. So tearing one down does not prop up another, it just reduces the overall size of the rail preservation industry.

I have said a few unkind things about the T1 project in the past, but I am changing my attitude toward them.

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J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad
"The shortest and narrowest Railroad in Ohio"


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:13 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:19 pm
Posts: 1892
Location: Pottstown,Pa.
Well said Hot Metal. It's easy to dismiss those who dream big and find lots of reasons why their dream will fail. Truth is most big ideas do fail.....but not all !! If it were easy it wouldn't be so special when one does succeed.

The T-1 folks are making a professional, measured approach to their chosen task and despite the odds might just pull it off !!

I choose to say best of good luck...and contribute some financial support as my means allow.

Let's hope someday we do see her rounding Horseshoe Curve ( without a dismal) pulling a trainload of believers!!!

Ross Rowland


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:18 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:58 am
Posts: 21
Hot Metal wrote:
Christopher S., please tell me with certainty where 765 will be running in 20 years? Even Fort Wayne does not know. Nobody knows. So why bother raising money for its next rebuild? After all they don't have signed contracts in hand for trips that will run two decades from now and in your world that is unacceptable.

If the T1 project continues to gain steam, it will take that long to get it finished. So even if Wick Mooreman himself said today that when the T1 is finished it can run over Horseshoe Curve as many times as it likes, by the time the loco is ready NS will be on its third CEO after Mooreman, and under no obligation to follow through.

I'm sorry, but this tired old "where will they run it" retort keeps appearing and it is a rather meaningless issue when dealing with a constantly changing industry and a long lead time. Any number of positive or negative things could happen between now and then. Nobody can say with any certainty that any mainline steam will be running in 2035. How many of you predicted that NS would make an abrupt about face on steam and run trips in 2014? Hmmm???

Most railfans and many heritage railroaders unfortunately act as if there is only a finite amount of money to support rail projects, and to restore or build one locomotive means another will go untouched. That zero sum game is such a myopic and small view of the world, and shows that there is a definite lack of imagination and outreach. Why must we always eat our own? Why must we constantly battle each other, instead of supporting one another? Or at the very least try not to cause harm. The true battles are not within the community but with external forces competing for funds. Airplane restoration projects, rails to trails, art museums etc. are the ones we should be competing with for support. In reality, much of the funding for restoration projects does not come from within the rail community, but from outside it. So tearing one down does not prop up another, it just reduces the overall size of the rail preservation industry.

I have said a few unkind things about the T1 project in the past, but I am changing my attitude toward them.


So, what happens if they spend all that time and money to finish the project and they have no place to run?

I'm fine with people building it, but I've heard nothing of their plans when it is finished beyond "it will run." I just want to see their plan B because it shows they are being realistic. If they aren't considering what they will do if they can't run it, what other things are they not considering?


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:49 pm 

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2006 10:42 am
Posts: 251
Location: Wyoming, DE
Hello,
The following comments are based on my limited involvement in railway preservation but from a life-long interest in this subject and observation of many life experiences as a US citizen.

In America, I sense a declining interest in history. Maybe I am wrong. In England do I sense a strong appreciation, nationwide of their history and industrial heritage? Even in the current generation? There seems to be strong national support there for railway and other historical preservation.

Here there is a massive GDP that by ratios would lead you to think we have a stronger chance of a greater success than the English but there is an equally massive diverse level of interests in entertainment, sport, automotive, the list goes on .

The T1 project can definitely gain valuable information from the Tornado build but may I suggest it needs to be tailored to the US market. In this thread there seems to be a strong concern of where this will run. Perhaps a "theme park" marketing aspect could be considered. The term "theme park" seems to detract from the mission of this build but I am trying to illustrate a point.

In England the Great Central Heritage Railway possibly illustrates my point. Create an environment where you can run this locomotive as it was mean to, with the trimmings, creating the world which was US mainline railroading in the 1940's. This increases the cost to develop substantially but creates a sanctuary for preserved steam. Perhaps the a Strasburg and Age of Steam are creating those environments?

Return on investment for this? Forget it, funding it to keep it operating would be an achievement alone.

The educational aspect of this was mentioned earlier. What an I interesting platform for this to be part of an engineering and graduate engineering university involvement in thermodynamics, stress analysis, fluid mechanics and process control.

Since this is a replica and not limited to the strict confines of a historic artifact, the look and spirit if the T1 can be maintained but the design can be enhanced to make it perform and operate better than first envisioned.

I'll second the opinion of Hot Metal. Let's not limit the possibilities.

My I also suggest there are young folks out there, example being Kelly Lynch from the 765 group that can get enthusiastic over historical machinery. These folks need to carry the torch for their generation and the future. Us older guys will eventually die off.

Best wishes to the T1 Trust!

Regards,

Randy Musselman


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:52 pm 

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:15 pm
Posts: 240
The page has existed since August of 2013, what are you guys talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9496
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Dave wrote:
Problem solved: run it in England.

Next problem: Won't fit the loading gauge.

When EMD designed the Class 66 for the first British buyers, they were so constrained bu the loading gauge that they had to sacrifice dynamic braking because there wasn't enough room atop them for both dynamic brake grids and the engine noise mufflers.


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 Post subject: Re: Pennsylvania Railroad T1 Steam Locomotive Trust now on F
PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:24 pm 

Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:24 pm
Posts: 59
It looks like TRAINS Mag. did a Q&A with the group. I think they answered most questions that have been brought up here. It seems like they know the challenges they face and are over-coming each one at a time. It is worth a read.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/staff/archive/2015/02/18/10-questions-and-answers-for-the-t1-trust.aspx


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