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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am
Posts: 728
Quote:
This is one of the things I really like about this forum. You never know what kind of rare gems someone is likely to find still existing.


I have it on good authority that we will hear some very interesting reports on Monday...

Seriously, though, I hope somebody can preserve the boxcar with the Deco ends and Viking roof. It's an interesting variation of the AAR boxcars we all have, and it's important for people to understand the standard design allowed a variety of commercial ends, doors, and roofs.

Steve Hunter.


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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:11 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
sbhunterca wrote:
Quote:
This is one of the things I really like about this forum. You never know what kind of rare gems someone is likely to find still existing.


I have it on good authority that we will hear some very interesting reports on Monday...

Seriously, though, I hope somebody can preserve the boxcar with the Deco ends and Viking roof. It's an interesting variation of the AAR boxcars we all have, and it's important for people to understand the standard design allowed a variety of commercial ends, doors, and roofs.

Steve Hunter.


Steve,

I agree. The car could be part of a good interprative exhibit on standardization.

I'm always amazed when I look at the old cyclopedias the sheer variety of everything you could get, from boxcar doors, to hatches, to brake beams. Impressive.

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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:17 pm 

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wilkinsd wrote:
"Automobile" box cars can be a misnomer. As I understand it, it was the "standard" designation for any boxcar that had more than one door per side, including door and a half boxcars found on some roads.

If you check out older Car Builders' Cyclopedias you see the "automobile" equipment that was in most of these cars, usually pockets on the side walls to erect some sort of support, sometimes timber.

I believe Greenfield Village has an early Automobile car, complete with the metal "Pockets" in the wood sides of the car for such supports. It was discussed in an earlier thread.

Les Beckman at HVRM seems to be the resident freight car expert and may or may not have more to chime in.

As for the car in Russell, I wonder if the sides are still on it.

David


David -

First of all, I checked with a member of the C&OHS and he tells me that the car at Russell is part of the CSX continuous weld rail plant and, unfortunately, has a "large chunk" removed from the end away from the camera.

Secondly, thanks for the kind words, although I am far from a "freight car expert". Your explanation of an "Automobile Car" is probably right on. We have a Wabash 40' single sheathed wood boxcar at HVRM (WAB #49114) that the Wabash once lettered with the words AUTOMOBILE on the sides. The car was assigned to the railroads NJI&I short line in South Bend, Indiana for use by Studebaker. This car still has metal extensions beneath the car floor where chains were attached when automobile frames were shipped in the car. The car may also have actually transported complete automobiles or auto bodies at one time. I have seen photos of Studebaker Larks being loaded in a similar 40' double door steel boxcar (I believe it was New York Central) where one car was driven in to the double door opening and then had its front end jacked up, then a second car was driven into the other end of the car and similarly jacked up. A third car was then driven in and manuevered to be under the raised portions of the other two cars. In other words, three automobiles were shipped per 40' boxcar. The Wabash also had some of their 40' single sheathed wood cars that had doors that opened on the ends. Perhaps a fourth car might have been carried although I have not seen photos of loadings through those doors. Eventually the word AUTOMOBILE disappeared from the sides of the Wabash cars, although that may have been a case of the cars being assigned to other service rather than being used exclusively by the auto industry.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:35 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
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Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Les Beckman wrote:
First of all, I checked with a member of the C&OHS and he tells me that the car at Russell is part of the CSX continuous weld rail plant and, unfortunately, has a "large chunk" removed from the end away from the camera.


NOOO!!!!!!!!!

Les Beckman wrote:
I have seen photos of Studebaker Larks being loaded in a similar 40' double door steel boxcar (I believe it was New York Central) where one car was driven in to the double door opening and then had its front end jacked up, then a second car was driven into the other end of the car and similarly jacked up. A third car was then driven in and manuevered to be under the raised portions of the other two cars. In other words, three automobiles were shipped per 40' boxcar. The Wabash also had some of their 40' single sheathed wood cars that had doors that opened on the ends. Perhaps a fourth car might have been carried although I have not seen photos of loadings through those doors.

Les


That is how autos were shipped prior to the invention of auto racks:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/carhaul/51 ... otostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/carhaul/51 ... otostream/

That's what this gear was for--and again, is any of that still around? Would it be too hard to replicate it, and "load" a couple of old cars to show this?

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/coh ... s-8016.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:54 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
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Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Appalachianrails wrote:
J3a-614 wrote:
Now, out of curiosity, are there any box cars anywhere in preservation that still have the auto loading equipment that was used before auto racks?


http://hostthenpost.com/uploads/1da6629 ... 5d59cb.jpg

Is this one of them? This is also in Russell still used by CSX.


Wow, another find!! From the "Freight Car Equipment" book of 1937, we check plate 37--Nos. 9500-9599:

"Built: Pressed Steel Car Company, 1930

"Number of cars: Acquired 500 August 1, 1937 499

"Last Cars Retired: by 1971

"Notes: Until 1935, these cars were classified A5-1.

"A large number of these cars were converted to non-revenue service after retirement, since the end doors aforded an advantage for the loading of small on-track equipment."

Appendix C notes the corrected final retirement date was in 1970.

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/coh ... s-8561.jpg

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/coh ... s-8562.jpg

http://cohs.org/repository/Archives/coh ... s-8563.jpg

What else is out there?


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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:09 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:38 pm
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Wow! Just Wow! Thank you Appalachianrails! I must say I was really excited until I saw the post about how a large chunk was missing! Even so, I really do hope there is something in the future for that old girl! One question, where is the large chunk? If both ends still exist and it is just a section in the middle missing, that could possibly be saved and with a (possibly large) "scratch building" restoration, one car from this extremely unique class could be saved. I will say though even if this is not possible, I really do hope she becomes preserved! Possibly as a display inside a building?

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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:46 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:50 pm
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Location: Northern Illinois
Why?

Do you know who supplied the ends?

Who designed them, and what particular shortcomings of previous ends the design was intended to address?

Do you know why the design was not successful enough to be used again?

Basically, in twenty five words or less, can you tell us why this particular railroad car is more worthy than any other to have scarce resources expended on it? Can you suggest which groups mission statement might dictate a need to preserve this example of these atypical, unsuccessful boxcar ends?

Or is it simply a matter that YOU think they are neat, therefore SOMEONE ELSE should spend the money to attempt to preserve them?

Our museums are full of junk that was saved on a whim because someone thought it was neat, that will never be fixed, because on closer examination, there is no good reason to do so. Meanwhile, countless dollars have been wasted buying it, moving it, and paying for land to store it on, and paying the ongoing costs of owning the land.

To my way of thinking, the very first question about any potential acquisition should be, "What story does it tell?" If it doesn't have much of a story, it shouldn't rate a second thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:03 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Dennis Storzek wrote:
Do you know who supplied the ends?



Since the car was built in 1937 and the ends are not even mentioned in the 1941 edition of the Car Builders' Cyclopedia, I would suggest that they did not work out as planned, especially given their limited application.

I could see, however, a 1937 AAR boxcar being part of a nice display on standardization, the development of steel boxcars, and just boxcars in general. Maybe some dummy crates secured inside, etc. Perhaps part of such exhibit could focus on why boxcars were more popular then, the rise of specialized freight cars, equipment suppliers.

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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:56 am 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1071
Location: Back in NE Ohio
Les Beckman wrote:
First of all, I checked with a member of the C&OHS and he tells me that the car at Russell is part of the CSX continuous weld rail plant and, unfortunately, has a "large chunk" removed from the end away from the camera.


If only one end of the car is intact, well, that sounds like a possibility of preserving a few feet of that end of the car, and mounting it on a wall near a fully preserved example of a standard end car to show the variations that were tried over time - something that has been done a few places with, say, the cab of a locomotive. Not a perfect solution, but until the photo of the car in Russell was posted a few days ago, most of us didn't even know part of one existed at all. Actually, I'd hazard a guess that a lot of us didn't even know about this design variation before that, period. So, maybe part of something is better than nothing? This solution also answers the critics of the costs of acquiring, transporting and restoring the entire car, if it ever becomes available at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:07 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:38 pm
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Sorry to bring this back up, but I recently decided to go look at the box car from an aerial view. In the aerial view, the side that is out of view form the original photo of the car http://hostthenpost.com/uploads/90bcb86 ... a219c2.jpg is not missing a large chunk as was suggested. The only side that could be missing a large chunk is the side alongside the other box car, but since they are not pressed together, cutting a hole in one to link them would not make sense (at least in my mind). No matter what, the bright side is, is that there is definitely an entire car body still in existence with a frame and even couplers for that matter! Here are the coordinates for google maps 38.546735,-82.719563 . Bringing up the large chunk missing, could it be possible that one of the cars in the welded rail assembly plant was confused as this one? All the box cars in this line have both of their ends cut off, hence the large chunk! Here are the coordinates for those cars 38.546736,-82.720017 . Since they are right next to the unique car, I think they might have been confused for it when asked about.
More to think about!

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Last edited by 10stewi on Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:55 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
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Jeff Lisowski wrote:
10stewi wrote:
All the box cars in this line have both of their ends cut off! Here are the coordinates for those cars 38.546736,-82.720017 . Since they are right next to the unique car, I think they might have been confused for it when asked about.
More to think about!


Link;

Google
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=38.54673 ... s&t=h&z=20


Using the Link that Jeff furnished, and the original photo of the car there at the CSX Russell, Kentucky continuous rail welding site, I think that 10stewi may have a point. That is, if I have the right car. I think he is talking about the car that is in the group of four cars parked next to each other where the road (?) marked Butler Avenue would bisect it, IF it continued on to the cars. The little blue building in both photos, seems to confirm that this is the car. So, between the two pix, we can see that 3 of the sides of the car on both sides of the original doors are intact but we just can't see the fourth side. The argument put forth by 10stewi (that it would make no sense that the fourth side is missing since the cars do not touch) is certainly plausible. But it sure would be nice to know for sure. Anyone like to go and request permission to take a peek? Like it was said; perhaps a complete car body and couplers and probably underframe and a car still existing with these unique Deco Ends. So, a possibility at least! Will wait to hear more.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:41 am
Posts: 3303
Location: Inwood, W.Va.
Les Beckman wrote:
[
Using the Link that Jeff furnished, and the original photo of the car there at the CSX Russell, Kentucky continuous rail welding site, I think that 10stewi may have a point. That is, if I have the right car. I think he is talking about the car that is in the group of four cars parked next to each other where the road (?) marked Butler Avenue would bisect it, IF it continued on to the cars. The little blue building in both photos, seems to confirm that this is the car. So, between the two pix, we can see that 3 of the sides of the car on both sides of the original doors are intact but we just can't see the fourth side. The argument put forth by 10stewi (that it would make no sense that the fourth side is missing since the cars do not touch) is certainly plausible. But it sure would be nice to know for sure. Anyone like to go and request permission to take a peek? Like it was said; perhaps a complete car body and couplers [J3a--and an air hose!] and probably underframe and a car still existing with these unique Deco Ends. So, a possibility at least! Will wait to hear more.

Les


Let's look closer:

Original photo:

http://hostthenpost.com/uploads/90bcb86 ... a219c2.jpg

Coordinates photo for the group of four cars--actually five:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=38.54673 ... CCsQ8gEwAA

What's there? Four cars (one, "our" (?) car with a roofwalk, that seems to be in the ground photo), a fifth car that has windows (yep, that's next to the Deco car in the original photo, too--looks like a car that was originally wood sheathed), the small blue building or shanty (actually it's a dumpster with black top doors, looks that way in the satellite photo, too), track that goes under at least one of the two cars that could include "our" Deco car (right position to continue under the Deco car), a pole beyond the blue building that seems to have the same hardware and lights on it as the ground photo, as well as a guy wire, the angle or offset between the two PS-1 bodies looks the same. . .it's. . .it's. . .it's. . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwM5KpoPPrg


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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:39 pm 

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I don't LOL much on RYPN, but that one got me. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:42 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:28 am
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Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
IT EXISTS, THUS IT MUST BE PRESERVED AND SAVED! LET'S SPEND VALUABLE MUSEUM RESOURCES OF MONEY AND VOLUNTEER TIME ON IT! IT MUST BE SAVED NOW! I DEMAND THAT SEVERAL MUSEUMS, NONE OF WHICH I VOLUNTEER AT, NOR CONTRIBUTE TO TAKE IMMEDIATE STEPS TO SAVE THIS CAR NOW. IF THEY DO NOT, THEY WILL LOOSE MY RESPECT!

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 Post subject: Re: Are there any left?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:56 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:44 pm
Posts: 30
wilkinsd wrote:
IT EXISTS, THUS IT MUST BE PRESERVED AND SAVED! LET'S SPEND VALUABLE MUSEUM RESOURCES OF MONEY AND VOLUNTEER TIME ON IT! IT MUST BE SAVED NOW! I DEMAND THAT SEVERAL MUSEUMS, NONE OF WHICH I VOLUNTEER AT, NOR CONTRIBUTE TO TAKE IMMEDIATE STEPS TO SAVE THIS CAR NOW. IF THEY DO NOT, THEY WILL LOOSE MY RESPECT!


Troll, I have a good grasp of the english language and I didn't see any of the posts that came remotely near suggesting anything like this. There were simply a few comments along the lines of hoping it could be preserved. After all this is Railway PRESERVATION news!


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