.... from Mr. Wilkins posting.....

"the letter is that it mentions being able to better care for the L&N Jim Crow Combine (665)"...

David... in the last 30 years, kindly explain if any care at all was ever offered to this combine ? ( other than the remains of a blue tarp )

Perhaps based upon your knowledge of KRM, was any thought ever given to the reduction of "duplicate" equipment, such as the two REA express boxcars, the what would appear to be dozen L&N head end baggage cars, the heavyweight diner ( when they just bought a light weight diner ) etc etc etc....

Don't get me wrong, I don't suspect anything will change the direction of this ... However perhaps something can be learned


Dean Levin

( perhaps David can share .. how did the combine fall into such disrepair ? )

Dean,

I think you know the answer...

Well 30 years ago... 1981. I think the 665 was in decent shape in 1981, but it was always outside at the KRM's site in Louisville. It was used as the car on the short train ride offered at the time, about a mile in length, pulled by the Alco S1 that is to be sold. Afer that, no real care. There is a postcard out there of the 665 next to the Mt. Broderick, taken in the late 1970s or early 1980s, and show that other than some faded paint, the car is intact.

When the car moved with the rest of the collection to New Haven, it had a very heavy rubber tarp covering the whole car. I don't know what happened to it. I remember about 1995 or so the car ws put inside and evaluated. Then, the car really wasn't in that bad of shape, some work on the sides, no real rot in the side sills. (The car has a fishbelly frame with big steel side sills, so no real rot problem there, which may make the car saveable one day). There have been grant proposals tossed around since then, but nothing concrete. In the mid 1990s the Kentucky African American Heritgage Council gave money for the car, and money to develop a history of the car to use it as an exhibit. Nobody seems to know what happned to that money.

Since then, it's gotten a lot worse. As more sheething has fallen off, the structure of the car is now exposed to the elements, which isn't good. About 9 years ago, I approached the Executive Director with a plan to caccoon the car, like Strasburg does. It was rejected before I could get the entire proposal out, saying it would cost money. Of course, I had an idea of material costs and was going to approach some sources of funding for that, but it was rejected. I should have gotten more people involved, but at that time I got the letter admitting me to law school in St. Louis, and I moved on to other things.

I suspect the car has fallen into disrepair because nobody cared, and the leadership of the KRM never made it a priority, even to try to take basic steps to preserve it. They were too busy playing tourist railroad, bying CN dining cars, painting a CF-7 and wanting to compete with RJ Corman's dinner train operation to care.

I really don't understand how an organization with $1.5 million in gross revenue, payroll in excess of $200,000.00 can not afford to spend a couple of thousand dollars on some plywood, paint, vents and rubber to caccoon the car.

UPDATE: The ballot is due back at KRM by December 27th. Given the mail over the holiday, I scanned mine in and sent it as an e-mail attachment yesterday afternoon. I asked for confirmation that it was received, and haven't gotten it. We're leaving for home for Christmas tonight, so I'll deliver it in person tomorrow afternoon.

Any info on the H-12-44 as far as price?
Herb Sakalaucks

I think anything at or better than scrap price will take it. One truck is in "kit form" from a botched and failed attempt to covert it to roller bearings, but I know at least one person who knows where all the parts are.

Thanks David for your interesting evaluation..... however there was no mention of selling off items that would perhaps seem to have some duplication within the collection....

here is an example....

two nearly identical REA refrigerator cars....

just an opinion, however with multiple quantities of identical un-needed cars, why would you not market cars such as these... in which more than one exist on the property, and offer no revenue ?

just a question... I know I am not on the Board or directly involved, however, I believe I would part with a duplicate item ( keeping the better of the two ) before I would part with unique items within the collection....


Dean Levin

This is the response I received from my inquiry. If I have time tonight I'll reply back to Greg.

The Sea Breeze, among some other pieces of equipment are in process of being declared as surplus by the KRM Board. The Sea Breeze and a small yard engine are on the KRM Protected List and as such will require a vote of members to remove it from the list for sale. A ballot has been sent to KRM members for this purpose.
 
The sea Breeze when it first came to KRM over 20 years ago, I am informed, was not in good shape then and the past 20 years has taken a toll on the coach. It, in opinion of KRM car shop supervisor, is beyond hope at this time (no windows, major rusted through areas on sides, missing steps at one end, gutted interior, sagging/rusted roof, etc) and estimates of just doing a cosmetic restoration of its exterior is over $100,000. The Sea Breeze is one of several pieces at KRM which have been silently waiting for their turn at restoration and it was not a priority in line ahead of other more historic pieces such as Engine 152, Jim Crow coach 665, the Mt. Broderick, Combine 1603, EMD E6A 770, steam crane from L&N, steam pile driver from L&N, and do forth.  KRM is not alone as most railroad museums and collections are being thinned out across the nation as time, weather and economic conditions have forced tough decisions on what to save and what to dispose of.
 
KRM which has suffered several weather and flood related disasters in past 10 years, the most recent being a 100 year flood in summer of 2010, must raise money to cover bills, expenses and mortgage, while it awaits better economic times,  receiving a large amount of money still due from FEMA for flood expense reimbursement, and seeking and fund raising funds from other sources.
 
KRM has offered some pieces of equipment to other railroad groups for preservation in past three years including a caboose to the MONON Historical Group and a boxcar to NC&StL historical group. But KRM is not in the position because of its financial need to offer the Sea Breeze or other pieces to others for free now, even if it could be moved, which is doubtful, except at major expense. Due to its condition and friction bearings it cannot leave KRM by rail. It's size and weakened structural condition would make lifting it by cranes to a special low boy trailer for shipping also very problematic and very expensive.
 
KRM would have to per its financial and fiduciary responsibility of Board members dealing with the Museum assets as well as the bank which holds the mortgage, seek no less than the going scrap value for the coach which would be at $210 a ton and the Sea breeze is probably as it sits at 70 to 75 tons or a minimum of $15,000.
 
Greg Mathews, Executive Director KRM  

To Dean:

I think the answer to your inquiry regarding the duplicate equipment is obvious, they have no plan, no collections plan, no fundraising plan, no plans whatsoever. This "emergency" will be dealt with, and a few months later will crop up with the same problems and fewer assets.


To Stuart:

I believe the Executive Director, who also sits on the Board of Directors forgot to mention that the scrap revenue will keep the museum afloat, so he and the other staff continues to get paid.

His response is also factually incorrect, the Sea Breeze came to KRM in the 1970s, very intact and in very good shape with all of its windows, no rot and no roof problems. It was backdated by KRM volunteers, including removing the steal that covered the upper sash. I guess the facts shouldn't get in the way of your argument.

Sad, just very sad.

David Wilkins

You know guys..........

as I was walking around the plant this afternoon, I got to thinking about another perspective on this situation.

What if - and this is speculation knowing nothing other than what's been posted here- the guys the members are allowing to be in charge and are sort of undertaking these actions under a form of nonprofit martial law are really geniuses and have found a way to turn the liability of artifacts to be cared for and interpreted into assets that can be disposed of for revenue? There isn't much value in them otherwise......

Let's also think about their motivation: I'm suggesting survival of the organization as the only goal. So, in that case, their efforts have pretty much been as "deciders" who, without the express permission of the membership but without starting a revolution, have sort of turned the museum into a self destructive monster version of itself, feasting on its various bits and pieces, in hopes of having its "heart" remain viable.

I'm wondering if there had been a long term move to openly reconsider the structure, mission, and collections management ability of the museum, things might have been different? Suppose, for example, that the flood had been not considered a tragedy because it stopped the running of trains and got things wet, but a time to start the process of reconsidering and planned, rather than emergency, evolution into a sustainable model. Maybe the running of trains wouldn't have been the top priority. Maybe a shorter run would. Maybe a move to high ground would have been considered. Maybe shrinking by deaccession to good homes rather than to scrappers. Maybe don't borrow all that money in the first place............

If only the members had been actively involved and the management didn't take perpetuation of the existing but soggy model as the ultimate goal. Maybe they'd have rather voluntarily morphed or even disbanded responsibly than become what they are now.....but were they ever asked?

Where are the members now if they actually care about the organization, and why isn't there a revolution taking place? If they don't care, why should we?

dave

Dave

Very well stated on your behalf ( in my opinion ).... When you say why has a revolution not taken place.... Seems like a totally valid point... and one that questions who are the soldiers at KRM, and given the condition of the equipment, why don't they question those in command....

however in a sense, "if they don't care, why should we"... well that is also interesting....

because where else, can you find a group of individuals with a relatively common mission, who could have 50 posts about a single boxcar, or a wreck crane, or a GG1.... I believe members of this forum have a collective feeling of accomplishment when something goes well ( no matter if its in California or Maine ) and for that matter, a sense a significant disappointment, when things go wrong, especially when the writing was on the wall for some time....and it was all avoidable.

just a opinion.... but I don't think anyone here, likes to see failure, as in the end after the personalities are removed, the equipment, its place in history, and the enjoyment of future generations of enthusiasts is what is truly lost....


Dean Levin

( a scene at KRM provided )

Because Dean, talk is cheap and posting to this list is very convenient and requires nothing of a commitment. I don't equate the expression of an opinion with genuine commitment, especially some of the ones that get on here. I'm pleased that many definitely aren't commitments.

FWIW, and thanks to a bit of PM information, it would seem that KRM has taken the management position of relying on TEA grants and Thomas events for covering operating costs, and has for several years now - welcome correction if I'm mistaken. If that's the case what we have in part here is a failure of sustainability not compensated for when the model didn't prove robust in the long run. Sure, take that windfall and use it for a special project or for an endowment but OPERATING EXPENSES?

And, looking at the deterioration of the collection overall for the past however many years, I'm not at all sure it was ever all that robust in the first place.

I hope I'm understanding it wrong, but if I am then what's the real story?

Anyhow, I think it is probably a good idea for us all to reexamine our operating and financial strategies for sustainability frequently, and to be aggressive about changing when it is necessary. If things are gradually falling apart around you and there's no workable plan for turning it around, you are probably in trouble.

dave

That may be the best analysis I've heard lately!!!

One other random thought on the KRM situation. I have a deep interest in passenger railroading in the southeast, and L&N is one of my favorites. The bad thing about preserving L&N generally is that they tended to run whatever they had absolutely into the ground, based on my observations. It's not that they didn't maintain, but they got the good from the maintainence that they did. Any organization that is as heavily into L&N equipment as KRM is was probably behind from the start and that would make good planning all the more important if you are to overcome the already steeper hill you have to climb.

ETA

Dave and Dean,

Well said. I'm the first to admit that I no longer live in Kentucky, and am not involved in KRM on a daily basis. In other words, I really don't have a dog in the fight, so you must take my opinion as much. Being formerly active and involved does provide some insight into those who run KRM.

Several years ago, a friend of mine on the KRM board tried to get the other members to set the policy of whether KRM was a museum that offered a train ride, or just a train ride. He reasoned that answering that question was the best way to determine how to go forward. They could never answer the question, and my friend became disinterested and left.

If anything, this discussion is a good way for us to determine what we do, why we do it, and how we go about doing it. Face these questions up front now, before it turns into something like KRM.

David

There are probably many organizations that should ask that same question. I find myself looking at some of the more successful operations and asking myself is that a railroad museum or a tourist railroad? There is a difference. And it is not a question that should be asked just by those in financial trouble.

Based on a very informal and unscientific retrospective survey, among the places I've goe and those I've worked for, unless there's a specific and professional "Museum" organizational identity and structure, and a substantial resouce to back it up, what you find are very small static displays in old depots leaning havily on cloth and paper, clubs of guys who call themselves museums but history comes in far behind their own ability to play train with a tax exempt status on several weekends a year with very inadequate resources and a sort of built-in crisis management structure, tourist oriented venues that tell stories and provide experiences based on history, and train rides which don't really interpret history, but entertain in a pleasant genercally nostalgic way.

I think the best of all worlds is a hybrid - choose the story (the more colorful the better) you want to tell, and do it not by cold hardware and paper and cloth under glass and the infamous Book On The Wall, but with the provision of the experience with interpretation to set it in context, and in an entertaining way. Part of providing the experience can also provide the guys with the chance to play trains, but at east it is likely to attract enough visitation (unless you do it very badly or make it boring) to provide adequate resources because you are offering something people want to do as a primary mission and taking your personal pleasure in getting your hands dirty as a very special side benefit.

I think Market Driven is the term.........but that doesn't mean the interpreation of real history is lost or unfortunate compromises made. It's about putting the community you serve first, and trying your best to do it well in entertaining truthful experience.

You also need good clean restrooms.

dave

I have watched the state of the museum for quite some time from a distance and, to be honest, I don't see much reason why I would want to go. The equipment has been in bad shape for quite some time and few efforts seem to be made to turn that around. I understand the problems that a lot of non-profits face and I have some good understanding in regards to how hard it can be to gain needed funding. But for far too long, it would seem, KRM has been under mismanagement and misdirection... and unless members decide to make an effort to change things it will be no better a year from now, five years from now, and so on.

If I were a member I would have already been in touch with other members about replacing membership, but I am not a member. All I can say is I hope those who do take a close look at how things have gone and decide to make change before change is too late. Its a real shame that a car like combine 665 and the Sea Breeze has been neglected, but the whole museum is in poor shape, judging from all the photos that are posted of the place, and its less likely to attract new visitors and interest except that those involved start taking steps to turn things around. If something isn't done soon the doors might as well be closed.

As for you, Mr. Mathews, either you have less sense or more courage than I do. If I were in charge and had allowed KRM to fall into the state of disrepair it is in I would be ashamed to show my face. I do not know how long you have been in charge but your lack of vision, if you have been in charge for any real time at all, shows all too well.