Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:16 pm

Update:

91. Glen Summit (Lot #4974, Plan #3523A/F, 1926)--to SOU #2523 (1948) to VMT (1964?) to Steven Smith (unknown date) to Mid-America Locomotive & Car Repair (MALX) (Evansville, IN) (unknown date) to Iowa Pacific as SLRG #9172 (2010's)

This car has now been acquired by the Aberdeen, Carolina & Western, stenciled as ACWR #9172; was seen moving today eastbound on the UP Overland Route at Kearney, NE, along with...

SP full ("3/4") dome lounge #3604 (nee-parlor #3000)...1974 to Amtrak #9373, 1981 to J.R. Reed, to Standard Industries, to Jim Stephenson, to David Paradeau-Minnesota Zephyr, to IPH, now stenciled as ACWR #9373.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:45 pm

More Info:

Via Isaac Pena.

461. Phanton (Lot #4590, Plan #2410F, 1920/41, 12S-1DR, AT&SF)--Tourist #1620 (13S) (1941)--sold to CB&Q (1947) used as backup tourist sleeper on GN (painted in GN colors) (1947-1952) to MofW #251150 (12/12/52) to BN MofW #968405 (7/1981) no retirement date listed, sold at unknown date (1980's?) to North Pend Oreille Valley Lions Club for their passenger operation on the Pend Oreille Valley RR, and modified to coach as POVA #208 Eagle, POVA passenger operation later taken over by the Rotary Club, passenger operations ended in 2016, listed for sale on Ozark Mountain 5/2020, sold to private party in 2/2021

I had previously listed the POVA #208 in this thread, without realizing that these cars were one in the same:

420. POVA #208

So, line item #420 is voided, as we have a double entry.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:52 pm

Update:

Via Isaac Pena.

26. Fort Eustis (Lot #3892, Plan #2547C, 1911/33, 6S-2DB-2C-1DR, George Washington, ex-Hot Springs, exx-Plan #2547/B 6S-5C, nee-Haldane)--sold to C&O (1948) to Midwest Chapter NRHS (1962) to Midwest RY Historical Foundation to Midwest RY Preservation Society

This car has been sold to the San Antonio RR Heritage Museum

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

PaulWWoodring · **Posted:** Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:20 am

I'm glad the Ft. Eustis is going to a museum, but I had hoped that it might end up in Clifton Forge at the C&OHS museum, since that was it's territory. That car was a regular part of the early train for the Cuyahoga Valley Line, and I rode in it a number of times. It's a somewhat uncommon configuration in preservation in this era, so I'm glad it survives.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:26 am

Update:

462. Hartley (Lot #3804, Plan #2416, 1910, plr [26]-1DR, PRR)--sold to SSW and rebuilt to diner lounge #242 (1940) rebuilt to business car #1 (2nd) Dixie (3rd) (4/1953) resold to Bovay Engineers, Landes, TX, as #1/#800171 (1970) resold to Cotton Belt RHS-Cotton Belt Depot Museum, Tyler, TX (19??) donated to San Antonio RR Heritage Museum, Elmendorf, TX (6/20/2019)

San Antonio RHM announced on their Facebook page back in August that the Dixie is being leased to Gold Standard Travel Lines. The car will be brought up to current Amtrak specifications and placed in PV service.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:34 am

Update:

Via Jacob Carey, and as posted in the ongoing Danbury/Beacon Island thread.

194. John Hancock (Lot #6384, Plan #4000A, 1930, 1DR-plr [30], Congressional)--sold to PRR #7042 (1945) to MofW #27148 to PC to Conrail to pvt. owner and stored in Glenmont, NY (unknown date)

This car has now been scrapped.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:25 pm

Update:

On Friday, October 22nd, 2021, 8th Post on Page #44, Rainier Rails wrote:

Another Potential Survivor:

Another car from Wil Hata's website.

On Tuesday, March 25th, 2014, 6th Post on Page #16, sou2404 wrote:

Does anyone know what happened to SOU 2496 McQuade (12S-1DR, 1924) after it left the TVRM? The roster I have just has the car listed as sold. Is she still around?

McQuade (Lot #4764, Plan #3410, 1924, 12S-1DR)--sold to SOU #2496 (1948) resold to Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum (1966) later resold to unknown party (19??)

This car came up in one mention in this thread years ago as quoted above, but a quick Google search turns up no other results, i.e., no info on where this car went after TVRM. Was it scrapped, or still out there somewhere?

Via Jacob Carey, sourced from David Duncan:

The McQuade was scrapped at TVRM years back, not sold as previously reported. Apparently it was scrapped at the same time as the Alabama College.

On Friday, October 1st, 2010, 8th Post on Page #2, Newriver400 wrote:

TVRM's collection

Others have come and gone - Alabama College (scrapped)

On Saturday, February 7th, 2015, 1st Post on Page #29, Rainier Rails wrote:

Even though it's a scrapped car, I'm assigning it a line item number just for clarity:

393. Alabama College (Lot #3800, Plan #4042A, 1910/35, 10S-2DB-1C, SOU, ex-Plan #2411B Port Byron, [20th Century Limited])--sold to AGS #4001 (1948) to TVRM (when??) and later scrapped (when??)

Does anybody know when the Alabama College was acquired or when it was scrapped?

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:15 am

Another Survivor:

Missed including this car here a few years ago now when its continued existence was listed by Jacob Carey.

486. Robert E. Lee (Lot #4886, Plan #3959/C/G/J, 1925, 3C-2DR-lng-obs, Crescent Limited)--to SOU #2527 (1948) to 52 seat chair #1046 (1955) later sold at unknown date to private owner, stored, Furman University, Greenville, SC

Sources:

1. Jacob Carey's "Surviving SOU Modernized Heavyweight Cars" thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43115&p=288840

2. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

3. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

4. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Elizabeth · **Posted:** Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:39 pm

Thank you, Mr. Brumberg, for this very useful thread; it is much appreciated. I have used it quite often over the years when researching the histories of sleeping cars that are displayed at various museums and the level of detail that you and others have uncovered is impressive.

Merry Christmas!

Elizabeth

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:35 pm

Elizabeth wrote:

Thank you, Mr. Brumberg, for this very useful thread; it is much appreciated. I have used it quite often over the years when researching the histories of sleeping cars that are displayed at various museums and the level of detail that you and others have uncovered is impressive.

Merry Christmas!

Elizabeth

You are welcome. Much has been found, and much more to still discover as the years go by.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:46 pm

Update:

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 7th Post on Page #4, Rainier Rails wrote:

Found another thread on surviving heavyweights while doing a Google search for info on the 6-3 Glen Blair:

Cars in need of assistance: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19681

Some other cars mentioned in the thread:

135. Mineral Spring (Lot #6087, Plan #3416C, 1927, 1DR-plr [28 seats], PRR)--sold to PRR #7099 (1945) to pvt. owner in Rio Grande, NJ

This car has undergone restoration work over the last 4 years on the Cape May Seashore Lines at Tuckahoe, NJ, and is now set up as a table car. Multiple photos of the work can be found via the Facebook account/posts below.

Exterior view: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=129922133254539&set=a.115440214702731

Before and after views: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=124110953835657&set=pcb.124113047168781

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:30 pm

Update:

On Sunday, January 26th, 2014, 14th Post on Page #13, Rainier Rails wrote:

283. Harriet (Lot #6087, Plan #3416A, 1927, 1DR-plr [28 seats], LV)--sold to LV #1553 (1940) to MofW tool car #94061 (1965) to Conrail #45718 to Anthracite Railroads Hist. Soc. to Southern RR of NJ and stored at Winslow Junction, NJ

This car was the subject of this thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30223, in which the possible scrapping of the car by SRNJ was discussed. Does anyone know if this car has yet been scrapped, or is still in storage??

a. In storage, May 2006: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=403342 (Sean McDonnell photo)

b. In storage, January 2010: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1932659 (Bill Rogerson photo)

c. In storage, December 2010: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2342927 (Joe Scherbenco photo)

Via the same party restoring the Mineral Spring above, the Harriet was scrapped by SRNJ around 10 years back.

Source:

1. Surviving Passenger Cars in the United States group on Facebook

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:55 pm

More Info:

Via car's owner, in the Surviving Passenger Cars group.

Rainier Rails wrote:

461. Phanton (Lot #4590, Plan #2410F, 1920/41, 12S-1DR, AT&SF)--Tourist #1620 (13S) (1941)--sold to CB&Q (1947) used as backup tourist sleeper on GN (painted in GN colors) (1947-1952) to MofW #251150 (12/12/52) to BN MofW #968405 (7/1981) no retirement date listed, sold at unknown date (1980's?) to North Pend Oreille Valley Lions Club for their passenger operation on the Pend Oreille Valley RR, and modified to coach as POVA #208 Eagle, POVA passenger operation later taken over by the Rotary Club, passenger operations ended in 2016, listed for sale on Ozark Mountain 5/2020, sold to private party in 2/2021

This car is now owned by Matt Collier, and will be moved to Orrville, OH.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Sun Dec 25, 2022 2:34 pm

Big Mystery Finally Solved:

On Monday, January 6th, 2014, 11th Post on Page #3, Rainier Rails wrote:

Mystery cars in Washington and Oregon:

86. Besides the Pelham and Douglas Fir listed above, the third sleeper at the restaurant in Yakima, WA, was formerly owned by NP, although I have not found out the name--the fate of this car is currently very uncertain--this car may have very well been scrapped sometime in the last few months

On Monday, January 27th, 2014, 14th Post on Page #14, etalcos wrote:

I may have a picture of your mystery car from Yakima -- I'll see if I can dig it up. Unfortunately this car was buried in the complex and a customary broad side shot was all but impossible to get. I can tell you that it was a solarium observation of some description -- perhaps that will help narrow the search.

On Monday, January 27th, 2014, 1st Post on Page #15, Rainier Rails wrote:

Thanks, ETA, for the info on the ex-NP car in Yakima!

The fact that the car is a solarium lounge narrows the search considerably:

NP only acquired three cars with a solarium:

Palm Point (Lot #6337, Plan #3975X, 1930, 3C-2DR-buf-sol-lng-obs)--sold to NP (1948) and leased to Pullman

Colonial (Lot #6385, Plan #4002B, 1930, 1DR-buf-plr [28 seat]-sol-lng)--sold to NP (1945)

Columbian (Lot #6385, Plan #4002B, 1930, 1DR-buf-plr [28 seat]-sol-lng)--sold to NP (1945)

On Sunday, February 9th, 2014, 12th, 13th, and 14th Posts on Page #15, etalcos wrote:

On Sunday, February 9th, 2014, 15th Post on Page #15, Rainier Rails wrote:

Thanks, ETA, for posting the Yakima photos!

Comparing the hallway-side window arrangement of the ex-NP solarium (photo #4) in Yakima with that of the Strates Shows Palm Lane (line item #89), I am fairly certain that the Yakima Car is indeed the Palm Point.

86. Palm Point (Lot #6337, Plan #3975X, 1930, 3C-2DR-buf-sol-lng-obs)--sold to NP (1948) to Track 29 (Yakima, WA)--likely scrapped Fall 2013 with ex-UP 12-1 Pelham (line item #83) and ex-UP 10-1-1 Douglas Fir (line item #78)

Comparison photo: Palm Lane at the NY State Fairgrounds: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=220731 (Scott Schroeder photo)

On Wednesday, October 22nd, 2014, 1st Post on Page #26, Rainier Rails wrote:

A Mystery Car (Well, Two Actually):

373. Earlier today, I received info regarding the listing on Rail Swap for this car:

Passenger compartment car Cleveland

Note that this is not the actual Rail Swap listing, but the Google cached version of the page, as Rail Swap is currently offline. The car is listed for sale for US $15,000 by the Midwest Railway Preservation Society (formerly the Midwest Chapter NRHS), and the address listed is for their ex-B&O roundhouse in Cleveland.

However, the info provided with the add has resulted in a mystery:

The add gives the car ID as the Palm Point, which has already been listed in this thread with a completely different fate:

86. Palm Point (Lot #6337, Plan #3975X, 1930/40, 3C-1DR-buf-sol-lng-obs)--sold to NP #749 (12/31/1948) sold to Track 29 (Yakima, WA) and scrapped in September 2013.

Now, if the car currently listed for sale is indeed the Palm Point, that what was the identity of the car scrapped in Yakima? If the car in Yakima was the Palm Point, then which one of the Plan #3975 cars is in Cleveland?

There were a total of 43 Plan #3975 cars, the first 4 of which had only 1 compartment instead of 3, and the next 12 cars had 2 compartments, the remainder had 3. Of those, 8 cars had Palm-series names. The dispositions are listed as such by Wayner:

Palm City wrecked on 1/14/1947 at Perham, MN, on NP.

Palm Grove sold 12/31/1948 to PRR #8546 WFL 4/16/1958 and sold for scrap.

89. Palm Lane retained by Pullman and sold 8/23/1956 to Strates Shows as #2 Syracuse sold to Central New York Chapter NRHS, on long term lease to Iowa Pacific-SLRG as of 2013.

Palm Villa sold 12/31/1948 to PRR #8547 WFL 12/31/1951 and scrapped.

Palm Islands streamlined 7/1940 for National Limited and sold 12/31/1948 to B&O #7490 WFL 5/2/1957 and reconfigured to coach observation #3310.

Palm Key streamlined 7/1940 for National Limited and sold 12/31/1948 to B&O #7491 WFL 8/22/1952 and converted to business car #900.

86. Palm Point sold 12/31/1948 to NP #749 as listed above.

Palm Valley retained by Pullman and sold 3/31/1959 to Purdy Company.

Of the 4 Palm-series cars not wrecked, sold to a scrap dealer, or otherwise accounted for, does anyone know which one is currently in Cleveland, or is it actually the Palm Point and the car formerly in Yakima was misidentified? If not the Palm Point or one of the other Palm-series cars, that what is the identity of said car?

Some pictures from the add:

http://railswap.org/osc/classifieds/oc-content/uploads/17/1682.jpg

http://railswap.org/osc/classifieds/oc-content/uploads/17/1683.jpg

With time, I became convinced that the car now in Cleveland was indeed the Palm Point, which left the Plan #3975 car in Yakima unidentified. As such, I made some further inquiries, and thanks to a member of the NPTellTale email list/group, we have our answer:

86. Grand Canyon (Lot #6262, Plan #3975D/P/U, 1929, 3C-1DR-buf-lng-obs-sol, International Limited, ex-Alabama, nee-Montreal)--sold to GN as MofW #O-3409 (1956) later resold to Skagit Station Restaurant, Sedro-Woolley, WA (unknown date) later resold/moved to Track 29, Yakima, WA (unknown date) scrapped late 2013

And just to re-cap, here's the full history on the Palm Point now in Cleveland:

373. Palm Point (Lot #6337, Plan #3975F/H/J/X, 1930, 3C-1DR-buf-lng-obs-sol, Everglades Limited)--sold to NP #1735 (1948) to #349 (1949) to #749 (1953) retired (1965) later resold to Midwest Chapter NRHS-Midwest Railway Heritage Foundation (MRHF), Cleveland, OH (unknown date) MRHF later renamed to Midwest Railway Preservation Society (MRPS), car listed for sale in 2014 and resold to private owner, still located at the MRPS ex-B&O roundhouse in Cleveland, undergoing restoration

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. "Passenger Car Catalog: Pullman Operated Equipment, 1912-1949" by William W. Kratville (Kratville Publications, 1968)

3. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

4. NPTellTale email list/group

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Sun Dec 25, 2022 5:41 pm

More info on the Palm Point's ownership history, from the car's Facebook page as posted by the current owner, Richard S. Kulik: https://www.facebook.com/palmpoint/

After retirement by the NP in 1965, was resold and used as a restaurant, the "Depot House Express", Rochester, MN, restaurant later closed and location become a Salvation Army store, car used for storing books, later resold to Doug Brown, Farmington Hills, MI, later resold to Richard Henderson, Silver Springs, MD, later resold to the MRHF and stored in Cleveland.

Surviving Pullman Heavyweight Sleeping Cars

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