Greetings,

I have a buddy who wanted me to ask this question on here (he doesn't believe in the internet--look what he's missing out on). He's interested in a lightweight Pullman. This cars sports the side sill corrosion that we see on so many passenger cars. He happens to be an accomplished welder. In acquiring this, would he be in over his head?

God Bless,
Gerald Kopiasz

hrrhs@aol.com

Best information on this subject I've found is at the site listed below.

(no plug, just good advice)


http://www.iltransit@iltransit.com/
lamontdc@adelphia.net

What does he want to do with it Gerald? Just for display he would probably be just fine. To operate on AMTRAK he would probably need some technical assistance.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Note that the side sills refered to on the ITAC site are for Budd cars. Most PS cars are carbon not stainless steel. If the cars will have to meet Amtrak standards, you may need to have a certified welder and possibly have the repairs designed by a professional engineer.

While your friend may be able to do the work, figure it is going to take some serious time and money to meet Amtrak Specs.



sflinh@stlmsd.com

Dave,

You outlined something I should have included. He definately does not intend Amtrak service--doesn't want to get involved with the additional engineering, PC2's, plus there's no need. He'd be looking at display and perhaps shortline (non-Amtrak) uses.

God Bless,
Gerald Kopiasz

> What does he want to do with it Gerald? Just
> for display he would probably be just fine.
> To operate on AMTRAK he would probably need
> some technical assistance.

> Dave


hrrhs@aol.com

Gerald:

Even if your friend has zero interest in running the car elsewhere (or at all) it might be to his interest to do as good a job with the engineering as he can, for the simple purpose of making it easier for the next owner to upgrade it if so desired--of course this will improve the cars resale value as well.

Just something to consider.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

> Dave,

> You outlined something I should have
> included. He definately does not intend
> Amtrak service--doesn't want to get involved
> with the additional engineering, PC2's, plus
> there's no need. He'd be looking at display
> and perhaps shortline (non-Amtrak) uses.

> God Bless,
> Gerald Kopiasz


mikefrommontana@juno.com

Isn't the Amtrak certification going to be a moot point in a few months anyways? No Amtrak trains, no reason to meet Amtrak standards.

Tod Engine Foundation
todengine@woh.rr.com

> Isn't the Amtrak certification going to be a
> moot point in a few months anyways? No
> Amtrak trains, no reason to meet Amtrak
> standards.

So I see I'm not the only one who thinks Amtrak will do a sudden magic trick (ya know, dis-appearing (but not re-appearing)

J.T.

hickassmafia@email.com

I guess this highlights the impact our realm of the railroad industry is realizing in regards to the Amtrak (Amtrack to some media) uncertainty. I wonder how those private charter operators are feeling...

God Bless,
Gerald Kopiasz
Heartland Railroad Historical Society

> So I see I'm not the only one who thinks
> Amtrak will do a sudden magic trick (ya
> know, dis-appearing (but not re-appearing)

> J.T.


hrrhs@aol.com

If the side sills are badly corroded, then probably the bottom part of the "Z" iron truss structure inside the carbody walls need to be replaced too. (The analogous situation in a wooden house would be rotten mudsills and rotten studs and cross-braces.) The problem is trying to replace all these structural members without first gutting the car interior. Ingenious solutions are better than brute force here. One possibility is to attach a thick plate, say 24" high x TBD thick x 80' long, to the lower part of the carbody, and then attach this to the bolsters underneath. For collision and derailment safety, this sort of workaround absolutely should be approved by a professional structural engineer. Remember that the structural strength of a "lightweight" car derives from the tube formed by the carbody - like an aircraft fuselage. (In a heavyweight car, on the other hand, the center sill provides the majority of the strength, and the carbody basically just keeps the passengers in and the rain out.)

Beware of accidentally starting fires inside the walls when doing exploratory surgery. Even if the carbody is insulated with fiberglass or "Vitamin A", these fireprooof materials were often manufactured as "batts" enclosed by cotton cloth, similiar to a pillowcase. The cotton slowly smolders, and the fire slowly travels up inside the wall. Generally nobody notices this until the smoldering cotton meets an old greasy/oily area in A/C ducting or a fan motor or something else flammable in the roof area - in the middle of the night, long after everyone has gone home. It is not necessary to use an oxyacetylene cutting torch to start this sort of disaster; I have seen the cotton cloth ignited by sparks from a grinding wheel cutting through the carbody.

Good luck!
- Doug Debs

doug.w.debs@fcimg.com

Greetings Doug,

I don't think the sills are corroded that bad. Key word is think, though. I wouldn't back that up until I was able to poke around the car in person.

I've read about fire warnings from others. How does one address this issue? Liberally spray the work area with water?

God Bless,
Gerald Kopiasz

> If the side sills are badly corroded, then
> probably the bottom part of the
> "Z" iron truss structure inside
> the carbody walls need to be replaced too.
> (The analogous situation in a wooden house
> would be rotten mudsills and rotten studs
> and cross-braces.) The problem is trying to
> replace all these structural members without
> first gutting the car interior. Ingenious
> solutions are better than brute force here.
> One possibility is to attach a thick plate,
> say 24" high x TBD thick x 80' long, to
> the lower part of the carbody, and then
> attach this to the bolsters underneath. For
> collision and derailment safety, this sort
> of workaround absolutely should be approved
> by a professional structural engineer.
> Remember that the structural strength of a
> "lightweight" car derives from the
> tube formed by the carbody - like an
> aircraft fuselage. (In a heavyweight car, on
> the other hand, the center sill provides the
> majority of the strength, and the carbody
> basically just keeps the passengers in and
> the rain out.)

> Beware of accidentally starting fires inside
> the walls when doing exploratory surgery.
> Even if the carbody is insulated with
> fiberglass or "Vitamin A", these
> fireprooof materials were often manufactured
> as "batts" enclosed by cotton
> cloth, similiar to a pillowcase. The cotton
> slowly smolders, and the fire slowly travels
> up inside the wall. Generally nobody notices
> this until the smoldering cotton meets an
> old greasy/oily area in A/C ducting or a fan
> motor or something else flammable in the
> roof area - in the middle of the night, long
> after everyone has gone home. It is not
> necessary to use an oxyacetylene cutting
> torch to start this sort of disaster; I have
> seen the cotton cloth ignited by sparks from
> a grinding wheel cutting through the
> carbody.

> Good luck!
> - Doug Debs


Heartland Railroad Historical Society
hrrhs@aol.com

Should be some interesting responses to this one. I am a confirmed chicken when it comes to stuff like that and the only car that I ever did "structural" on had to be gutted anyway. If you are really into a side sill problem one of the "benefits" of removing enough to keep yourself out of trouble is that you can satisfy yourself as to the true source of the problem and correct any vertical member problems. One of the things we found on our 1915 interurban is that the steel on the inside was coated with a layer of felt I guess to prevent condensation. Not at all fire retardent.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

I am not a gambling man and I don't think my friend is either. That is a good suggestion. Never hurts to nip things at the bud.

Speaking of the source of this rot, where does it generally come from. Considering the complicated process of gravity--everything goes down. :) I suspect this moisture either enters the wall cavity by way of a seam in the roof area or through bad window gaskets. Am I close?

God Bless,
Gerald Kopiasz

> Should be some interesting responses to this
> one. I am a confirmed chicken when it comes
> to stuff like that and the only car that I
> ever did "structural" on had to be
> gutted anyway. If you are really into a side
> sill problem one of the "benefits"
> of removing enough to keep yourself out of
> trouble is that you can satisfy yourself as
> to the true source of the problem and
> correct any vertical member problems. One of
> the things we found on our 1915 interurban
> is that the steel on the inside was coated
> with a layer of felt I guess to prevent
> condensation. Not at all fire retardent.


hrrhs@aol.com

In the case of the interurban car the water came in at the bottom of the window and sideways into the inside of the window post and down to the side sill. If you look carefully at a picture of a Lake Shore Electric steel car you can see the side plating bulging around the side sill while the cars were in service (1915-1938). The window frames were mahogany and sat directly on the steel. I believe Jewett later solved the problem with gasketed brass windows on later cars.
In the case of the Long Island coach, in the spring and fall, condensation appears to run out between the sheathing and the side sill. The interior of the cars do not have the telltale smell of old and mouldy so I don't think water is being held by interior insulation, but I still do not know the source.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

The advice above about burnable insulation is well given. The only sure solution that I know of is to dismantle the interior of the car and remove anything burnable before cutting or grinding on the carside. All that horsehair probably needs to be cleaned out, anyway. But hosing everything with water beforehand may serve.

One other bit of advice needs to be amplified. Because the carside of a lightweight is structural, the side sill cannot be cut out without providing alternative support (in the area between the body bolsters where it acts as the tension member of the side truss). Neither can much of the side plating be removed at one time - it provides the triangular bracing for the square framing. Volume 1 of the T.R.A.In. passenger-car publication contains the instructions developed by SP for re-siding Pullman-Standard lightweights, including jacking up the carbody so it doesn't sag during surgery and the fixtures for holding the new car side as it is applied.

Aarne H. Frobom
The Steam Railroading Institute
P. O. Box 665
Owosso, MI 48867

froboma@mdot.state.mi.us