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 Post subject: N&W 433
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:07 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 8139
Location: Wilton, NY
At Abington, WVA, in 1994:

http://www.railimages.com/gallery/album346/aah


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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:18 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:42 pm
Posts: 112
Location: Lexington, Kentucky
When and why was this particular engine donated to Abingdon? Why not the 429 or 382 as these were the regulars on this line in the latter days of steam?

And on another note, how was Y6 2156 saved for the museum in St. Louis?


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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:34 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:56 am
Posts: 1330
Location: Roanoke Va.
It is my understanding that when the request came through from the City of Abingdon for a Class M for display (sometime in 1958), 382 and 429 had already been scrapped. 433 was still on the property, as was 475. 433 was being used as a temporary stationary boiler for a shipper here in Roanoke, Clover Creamery, which had suffered a failure of it's plant boiler. Since 433 had been assigned to Bristol in the late 40's and early 50's (primarily as a yard engine) and had made occasional trips over the Abingdon Branch as back-up power, it was the last surviving "Abingdon Branch engine" on the property at that time. In it's later years, 433 had operated out of Roanoke on the "Salem Shifter" along with 475, as well as spending time in Lynchburg at Island Yard. This "story" is strictly anecdotable, I know of no historic documentation for it. However, I was once told by a retired N&W employee that 433, while in Lynchburg in the mid 1950's, replaced an ailing "J" or "K2" on a passenger train. Supposedly, she maintained the running time to Roanoke. 65+ mph on a "Mollie" must have been one helluva ride. The Abingdon Branch has a high amount of surviving motive power. Besides 433, G1 2-8-0's #6 and #7 survive, in Roanoke at VMT and in Bluefield, Va. respectively. It is also a strong probability that W2 917, still existing in a Roanoke scrapyard and theoretically "preserved" by VMT, (please do not ask me any questions on this comment, any response I would make would fall into the category of an extremely hot "flame") spent time on the Radford Division and the Abingdon Branch. 433 is in about the best condition of any "park engine" I have ever seen. The cover shown in the photo was erected shortly after the engine was placed on display. The cover was recently rebuilt, and the engine was given a very accurate cosmetic restoration. Abingdon has done an excellent job over the years of it's stewardship of 433. As for 2156, my best guess would be that she was at the end of the "dead" line when the St. Louis' museum's request for a donation was processed.

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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:38 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:42 pm
Posts: 112
Location: Lexington, Kentucky
Did you mean to say that the 475, not the 433, was being used as a staionary boiler? According to the book, "Steam, Steel and Stars," it was. I cannot imagine an N&W M doing 65 on a passenger train. Then again, I heard a story from some oldtimers at the yard in Bellevue, Ohio, that said they saw 765 doing 94 while pinch-hitting on a passenger train back in the 40s. Even that sounds a little far fetched.


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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:46 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:09 pm
Posts: 211
Location: New York
Many speed stories are difficulat if not impossible to
verify. Exceeding the limit could get you in trouble
back then IF SOMETHING HAPPENED. Many guys
put safety and their job security first.


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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433/freight steam on passenger trains
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:02 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5776
As to freight engines on passenger trains, it is a fact that the Chesapeake & Ohio regularly scheduled their roller bearing equipped 2-8-4 Kanawha's on passenger trains replacing older 4-8-2's. This lasted until until the EMD passenger diesels started arriving at which point the K4 2-8-4's were put back into freight service.

I have also seen a photo of a N&W 0-8-0 on a mixed train although I cannot recall which particular branch line.

And I recently read somewhere that Boston & Maine 2-8-0's replaced some other "passenger type" steamers on certain commuter runs as they could better hold the schedules.

So, never say never!

Finally, I am a bit curious as to the headlight placement of N&W locomotives like 433. I know that I have seen a photo of the engine with her headlight centered on the smokebox door. And J. David Conrad's book of Preserved Steam Power shows a photo of N&W 4-8-0 #475 with a similar mounting. And I have seen M2's with headlights mounted this way. Yet, number 433 has her headlight mounted near the top of the boiler. What's the story? Which came first and when were things changed?

Les


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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433/freight steam on passenger trains
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:17 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:53 pm
Posts: 660
Les Beckman wrote:
I am a bit curious as to the headlight placement of N&W locomotives like 433. I know that I have seen a photo of the engine with her headlight centered on the smokebox door. And J. David Conrad's book of Preserved Steam Power shows a photo of N&W 4-8-0 #475 with a similar mounting. And I have seen M2's with headlights mounted this way. Yet, number 433 has her headlight mounted near the top of the boiler. What's the story? Which came first and when were things changed?


M Class 4-8-0s were delivered with oil (kerosene?) headlights that closely matched the size of that big honkin' bracket.

Later (let's say roughly 1920), a Pyle-National topped by a homemade number "wedge" replaced the original. The ever-frugal N&W saved money by using the original bracket.

Beginning after WWII, the style of headlight you see on 433 (and that we put on 475 in February) began to turn up on Ms after shopping.

Finally, beginning in the early 1950s, some Ms got centered headlights. But not all - most probably went to scrap looking like 433 does today. The brackets used to center the headlight probably came from K Class 4-8-2s as they were streamlined.


FYI, 433 is well cared for. Its new roof is well-done, and it's jointly cared for by the Abingdon Parks Department, and local fans coordinated by Charles Seaver.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433/freight steam on passenger trains
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:29 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm
Posts: 5776
John:

Thanks for the rundown. Very enlightening! And what you are saying then is that the 433 has been "backdated" to reflect her appearance prior to the early 1950's change to centered headlights. Thus, the number plate is most likely a reproduction. And my guess is that the headlight platform came from some other N&W steamer rather than being a fabricated reproduction.

Les


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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433/freight steam on passenger trains
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:37 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:53 pm
Posts: 660
Les Beckman wrote:
And what you are saying then is that the 433 has been "backdated" to reflect her appearance prior to the early 1950's change to centered headlights. Thus, the number plate is most likely a reproduction. And my guess is that the headlight platform came from some other N&W steamer rather than being a fabricated reproduction.


No, I'm saying 433 never got a centered headlight. Only Ms that got major class repairs in 1954 or later ended up with a centered headlight. 433 probably got her last major shopping before that.

Look closely at the photo above, and compare it to a nose shot of 475 some time. 433 lacks the holes in the bottom half of the smokebox door that would indicate the presence of a centered bracket in the past. I don't know if 433's number plate is original or not - if it is, the town is quite lucky (and vigilant).

JAC


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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2011 3:36 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm
Posts: 2226
Onder wrote:
Many speed stories are difficulat if not impossible to
verify. Exceeding the limit could get you in trouble
back then IF SOMETHING HAPPENED. Many guys
put safety and their job security first.


A websearch drew me to this thread, this got me going. Having been in Northern Indiana Railfan meetings whom many South Shore personnel attended, Ed Hedstrom was an engineer, now late, told a story about another engineer having dropped the last passengers in South Bend for the return trip to Michigan City in the last night run east, he would open the throttle coming home full throttle. Ed said that engineer loved speed.

I really don't believe you would hear of various incidents on an official level like this, but as noted in this thread, you would have to hear them thru the grapevine.

I don't doubt a class M could have subbed for a J or K, and 765 doing 90, I believe it, those engines were built for speed, not the speed like the Hiawatha could, but speedy enough.

You could prolly get the M to 60mph for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:14 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:07 pm
Posts: 1073
Location: Leicester, MA.
dinwitty wrote:
Onder wrote:
Many speed stories are difficulat if not impossible to
verify. Exceeding the limit could get you in trouble
back then IF SOMETHING HAPPENED. Many guys
put safety and their job security first.


A websearch drew me to this thread, this got me going. Having been in Northern Indiana Railfan meetings whom many South Shore personnel attended, Ed Hedstrom was an engineer, now late, told a story about another engineer having dropped the last passengers in South Bend for the return trip to Michigan City in the last night run east, he would open the throttle coming home full throttle. Ed said that engineer loved speed.

I really don't believe you would hear of various incidents on an official level like this, but as noted in this thread, you would have to hear them thru the grapevine.

I don't doubt a class M could have subbed for a J or K, and 765 doing 90, I believe it, those engines were built for speed, not the speed like the Hiawatha could, but speedy enough.

You could prolly get the M to 60mph for sure.

If i was to have designed her, I'd make sure it could make 50 mph at least. That would be a respectable main line speed should any engine have to sub for a main line engine. There's also the point that many engines could exceed their designed speed, if driven properly and under the right steaming conditions. Steam power is only as good as the person at the throttle, and if you're good enough, I think you could pull 65 mph with a M-class.

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https://www.facebook.com/LambertLocomotive/


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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 8:34 am 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:51 pm
Posts: 9557
Location: Somewhere east of Prescott, AZ along the old Santa Fe "Prescott & Eastern"
Dylan and Dinwitty,

You are not being asked to design new locomotives, nor is there any use speculating on the potential speed of a steam locomotive unless you own the locomotive AND the railroad.

In the last 6-7 years of the NS steam excursion program, there was a blanket restriction in all NS employee timetables restricting all steam to 40 mph maximum. It's very likely that, in the future, all steam not equipped with PTC or similar automatic train control will be restricted similarly or even more severely, if they are even allowed to run at all on the main lines.

Could you get 433 to high speed? Maybe, and you'd probably be hanging on for dear life. I could get my old Saturn to 90+ on a drag strip (as I did once), but you still don't do that every day, for good reason.

Southern steam started small and simple: 4501, 630, and 722. It didn't get big and brash until it had other bigger steamers to lease: 4449, T&P 610, 2839. A loco like 433 could fit in a smaller, tamer program like the one being proposed/reactivated, but the fact remains that there are LOTS of ready, more accessible steamers out there for the choosing.


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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 12:42 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:02 pm
Posts: 1273
Location: Back in NE Ohio
Gary Gray wrote:
It is also a strong probability that W2 917, still existing in a Roanoke scrapyard and theoretically "preserved" by VMT


I recently saw the 917 on display (admittedly in a very poor state of preservation, no protection of any kind, no type of jacket or cylinder covers, or proper tender for that matter) at a restaurant called the "Buckeye Diner" at exit 165 (Belleville/Lexington) off I-71, S. of Mansfield, OH. I went up the hill it's on to get a closer look and talked with the owner about it. He knows it was one of the "Lost Engines of Roanoke", mostly because of fans who have stopped there. Sitting behind the engine is a funky four-wheel "tender" with fake coal in it, and a couple of non-descript baggage cars and a caboose that customers eat in. A phony red "cow catcher" has been bolted onto the original pilot. Out in back is a 1911 Pullman open-end obs car that the owner also has no idea as to it's heritage. At least these artifacts exist in friendly hands for the time being.

A word of warning to Big Blue fans - If you're a Michigan fan, you will probably not be amused by the decor of the place (especially the restrooms). It is truly a shrine to all things Ohio State.


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 Post subject: Re: N&W 433
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 1:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:00 am
Posts: 183
Location: Philadelphia, Pa.
Quote:
You could prolly get the M to 60mph for sure.


There's only one way to settle this. Think Strasburg would let the 475 undergo speed testing? They are connected to some 110 mph railroad ;)


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