> ...of potential locomotives and cars for
> addition to a museum devoted to the history
> of railroads in Pennsylvania, past, present
> and future, which pieces would you place on
> the list?"

> We are currently revising our collecting
> plan which will guide our collecting of
> full-size railroad vehicles well into the
> 21st century. I'd thought some Rypn readers
> might share what they would like to see in
> such a museum; it will help us generate some
> ideas for the collecting plan. I can't
> promise anything, but am looking to gather
> information from a knowledgeable audience.

> Based on historical significance, rarity,
> commonality, relevance to PA history, etc.,
> what pieces would you personally collect for
> such a museum? Specifically, the following
> vehicle "categories" are what I'm
> looking for:

> STEAM LOCOMOTIVES
> DIESEL-ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES (1st and 2nd
> generation units; why certain units and not
> others?)
> ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES
> ROLLING STOCK, FREIGHT AND PASSENGER
> MOW EQUIPMENT
> OTHER (SELF-PROPELLED, HI-RAIL, ETC.)

> Again, these pieces need to have some
> relevance to railroad history in
> Pennsylvania (either through use on PA-based
> lines or built by a PA concern).

> If you are unsure what vehicles are in the
> collection, refer to the collection roster
> at the web site link below for reference.

> Looking forward to everyone's sharing of
> expertise! Thanking all of you in advance.

I agree completely with Mr.Levin's observation that the State Museum needs more representation from other railroads with a significant presence in Pennsylvania. As in: Lackawanna,Lehigh Valley, Jersey Central(remember the CRP?),Erie,B&O,D&H,B&LE and others in the Pittsburgh area(P&LE,MRR,P&S ) It is probably more useful to dwell on what is, or may someday become, available. (No flames,please...)
STEAM- the obvious candidate is the Rdg. T-1 class loco #2100. Now for sale, although the price may be a budget breaker..
Another desirable loco would be B&LE Texas type #643. Supposedly restored some years ago with no place to run. Currently privately owned and stored in the Pittsburgh area.

Less likely, but possible would be DL&W Mogul #565. Don't know of any plans to do anything with it at Steamtown, and recent posts have indicated a definite lack of interest (or resources) . It is one of only two remaining Lackawanna steamers.

Should probably keep an eye on the project in Minersville to restore CNJ 0-6-0 #113 (Also one of two remaining CNJ steamers)
DIESEL- the diesel that did it- an F unit has been mentioned, and I suppose the B&LE units are the most likely to be available.(Try Larry's Truck and Electric- a loco rebuilder in Ohio)
Since there are no steam engines available from LV or Erie, perhaps they could be represented by diesels. We all know about the famous Erie E-8, but there may be an ex- Erie RS-3 or GP-7 around to represent that road. (Since they were the diesels that really put the coffin nail in steam!)
As far as LV,I think the last diesels built for LV(funded by USRA)- the U-23B, would make an interesting choice, since it could also represent the GE Locomotive Works in Erie. I believe one of the U23s is owned by Wimpey Minerals off the ex-Reading east of Hershey. I'm sure there are a few others around. As far as Baldwins are concerned, the ex-D&H/ex Mon./ex NYC Sharks would be very desirable. Believe they are owned by Castolite Corp and stored on the E&LS Railroad in Northern Mich.
PASSENGER- Since you already have a Broadway obs, I would much prefer to see an option on one the of the Phoebe Snow tavern/lounge/obs cars now used as Metro North business cars when their tour is complete. I don't know if any Royal Blue Route cars are left (there used to be a boat tail obs along the ex- B&O at Hyndman,Pa (start of Sand Patch grade) in private hands. Believe it had "Shenandoah" decorative script lettering on the back/sides.(Just thinking what a great display those obs ends would make with your Crusader and Broadway obs)
Think I've used up my quota of cyberspace... Maybe some folks from Pittsburgh can tell us if anything is available to represent the other roads in Western Pa. Thanks for the request... been thinking about it for decades.

jjburke0918@aol.com

Basically, let me second everything Dan Cupper listed first before adding my own thoughts.......

> STEAM LOCOMOTIVES

*why bother? Though could you justify some narrow-gauge coal-field lokie like Ashland's spare loco?

> DIESEL-ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES (1st and 2nd
> generation units; why certain units and not
> others?)

*I'm taking public what I've been screaming at you for ages, dude: The Baldwin RF16 up at the Escanaba & Lake Superior in Michigan. You don't need both; get the one with the scored crankshaft. It fills a bunch of holes simultaneously: Built for the NYC (underrepresented), later used on the Monongahela (ditto), built in Pa., and it's a model also used by the B&O (ditto) and PRR. AND the 1205/1216 were used by the Delaware & Hudson, although little in Pa. during their ownership of them.

After that, one of the 270-series F40PHs that ran on the Pennsylvanian during its first years, and a representative U-boat from Erie (North East has the NYC U25b, so get something else like a U30B or whatever).

> ROLLING STOCK, FREIGHT AND PASSENGER

My biggest and best suggestion: Snare one of the ex-PRR or NYC Pullman day coaches sitting up at White Deer, Pa. and rehash a classic typical Pullman open-section sleeper. And while you're up there trolling you'll find a couple choice ACF Milton tank cars and BCF cars as well, in need of a better home than the Central Pa. Chapter NRHS can give them.

> OTHER (SELF-PROPELLED, HI-RAIL, ETC.)

Sheesh. you got an RDC, you might get the Mack railbus across the street........ not asking for much, are you?

lner4472@bcpl.net

Starting with what you already have, would compliment you on a wonderful collection, and intrepetation o of that collection.

ItÂ’s clear you already have a vision, "built or used in Penn."

Your current quest has an answer in two different directionsÂ… following the current vision.

1) More diversity within your current collection goalsÂ… add more New York Central, or B&O, or short line itemsÂ….

2) Expand within your current targets to better cover the line(s) (i.e. the Pennsy) like early piggy backs, light engines like 44 tonnersÂ…

But, we are probably the wrong group to askÂ… We love trains and what they representÂ… You need to ask this question to local school teachers, local business men, and other folk, not associated with railroad preservationÂ… What hits themÂ…

I suspect it may be more, better freight consists, well interpreted (you already interpret wellÂ… lets just expand the concept) Think about your existing early Pennsy passenger trainÂ… surrounded by baggage carts and other accessoriesÂ… This tells a storyÂ… I think a train made up entirely of hoppers might tell a wonderful story as wellÂ…

Have you considered strengthening the "built in Penn storyÂ… " Would GE loan you a current production locomotive (on a rotating basis) to include what is being built today?


http://spcrr.org
hees@ix.netcom.com

In addition to what everybody else has added, I would include some part of Industrial railroading. With a slight bias I might suggest that PA has made a rather large contribution to the Steel Industry in the US. All those zillions of tons of coal and ore that the RR's shipped did not end up in a vacuum, they were delivered to the departments in mills by the mill RR's, same with liquid iron and steel, semi-finished and finished goods. Each ton of finished product has been shipped around the mills at least three times by mill RR's ranging from mule-hauled carts to narrow gauge to standard gauge. A large selection of specialized rather large equipemnt was used for these purposes but most of it went unseen, hidden behind the fence. Good old GE13031 spent 30 years working for MCRR switching around Pittsburgh and I have not been able to find one shot of her at work. We don't even want to get into the PA production of railroad goods without which you couldn't have built a RR as that is a whole other venue.

lamontdc@adelphia.net

I thought about it after posting earlier, and had forgotten the small part of Pennsylvania that was crossed by the Nickel Plate.

Museum could use more B&O,NYC,and Traction.
For steam B&LE, and 2100 are obvious choices perhaps.

Greg Scholl

Videos
sales@gregschollvideo.com

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned an Amtrak E60C electric locomotive. They're being retired, and I would guess that RRMofPA could get one. Not only was the E60C the successor to the GG1 and was the first electric locomotive built for Amtrak (I think - you'd better double-check this!), but it was built by GE. Also, I agree that some light-rail (streetcar/interurban) equipment would be excellent - I would recommend contacting Electric City Trolley Museum in Scranton to see if they've got any duplicates.

Frank Hicks

Pictured below: Amtrak E60CP, photo from www.northeast.railfan.net


fullparallel@wideopenwest.com

> There is a caboose in Ohio that is a wooden
> B&LE cupola type, originally built in
> Greenville, PA by the Greenville Steel Car
> company for the B&LE. The car is owned
> by a rail preservation group, but at this
> time its not getting much
> "preservation".

> The same group also has a single sheathed
> wood boxcar built by Pressed Steel Car
> Company, I think in PA in the mid 1920s. It
> too is slowly deteriorating waiting for
> preservation.

Rick: What railroad is the single sheathed wood boxcar from?



midlandblb@cs.com

Kurt,
You sure started a thread here! Lots of good suggestions. Don't forget builders like J.G Brill,
How about borrowing from the Nevada State Railroad Museum, the Coach that they built for the V&T to display with your V&T Tahoe?

Not withstanding the good work being done by the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum; how about any of the electric commuter cars from PRR, Lackawanna etc A whole bunch of these at tourist lines but none that I know of restored as a electric car.

How about a Long Island RR car built in Altoona?
A caboose might even be available.

Another builder was HK Porter of Pittsburg, at present just one little engine in the collection; there could be easily be others. There were thousands of narrow gauge Industrial 0-4-0 locos built there. They even show up on e-bay.

As a member of the Friends; this is a good project, I hope that it causes some more historic equipment to go into the museum collection.By the way, the snowplow looks great!

Ted Miles

ted_miles@nps.gov

Hey, its in Pennsylvania. Spend the museum and states money and buy the place, open up the rest of the old route, and it would be one superb museum, that is both operational, and for tours(old shop buildings etc). Something to consider.
Greg Scholl

Videos
sales@gregschollvideo.com

Two more ideas come to mind:
If you are looking to the distant future you should consider the last new locomotive delivered to Conrail before the split up. I don't know what it was or who has it now but it is a historic locomotive.
Also you need to consider a Penn Central display. Perhaps a local freight going down a weedy branch with a hand full of cars would best tell the story. This was not a good time for American railroads but is important to their history. After all, how many museums can have a don't let this happen to you section.

jhbohon@yahoo.com

Kurt,

Here are just a few of the pieces I would like to see PA acquire (besides the entire EBT):

STEAM LOCOMOTIVES

1. STOCKTON TERMINAL & EASTERN #1
4-4-0, 1864 by Norris Lancaster, PA
currently at Travel Town in LA

2. A Reading T-1. For the PA history and to have a big Wooten firebox to interpret.

3. A Baldwin-built Russian decapod restored to her USRA service appearance

4. The LNE 0-6-0 in IL. One of only five anthracite road steamers left not of RDG heritage.

5. The DL&W Coal lokie from the Wanamie mines, now in Oregon.

6. Siginifcant and diverse Baldwins like:
A 2-6-6-2 logging Mallet
A "standard" logging 2-8-2 or 2-6-2
Something big like a Sanat Fe 4-8-4 or 2-10-4
An export Baldwin

> DIESEL-ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES (1st and 2nd
> generation units; why certain units and not
> others?)

1. The Baldwin Sharks - PA builder, PA service lives, last of their kind, tell the story of Baldwin's ill-fated efforts.

2. A brand new Erie-built GE. That's right. Get GE to donate a new locomotive. Never run it. Tuck it away and keep her as-built.

3. The LNE S-2 in IL. Last intact LNE diesel, represents typicl switcher.

4. The LV SW-1 in Tennesee (or one of the other LV SW's).

> ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES

Just about anything left off the P&W or LVT.

> ROLLING STOCK, FREIGHT AND PASSENGER

1. A full compliment of steel mill related rolling stock (Treadwells, "footballs", gondolas). Could anything be more "PA" than a steel mill train?

2. The DL&W wood milk car at Steamtown

3. Lame description, but sigificant "production" samples from ACF, Johnstown and other PA car builders. Not wild demos, but a run-of-the-mill car.

4. The PRR mill gon abandoned on the L&HR in Belvidere, NJ.

5. The rest of the wooden Reading coaches.

6. The wood PRR business car in Farmingdale, NJ (it is in good, safe hands there, but would be nice in your collection).

7. Lehigh Valley #353

Oh, I could go on!!!!!!!!

Rob


trains@robertjohndavis.com

A nice idea that is probably not realistic considering the budget limitations for the museum and state right now and the leeryness by the EBT ownership of the government.

However, the RRMPA as I recall has no equipment of any kind representing the EBT and, as others have pointed out, is light on representing short lines. EBT #6 is setting forlorn in Connersville, IN in need of a savior. Although a bit of a basket case, all the parts are there. WWV would likely take a medium sized diesel in trade if one could be acquired for cheap. Also, there are a lot of hoppers at the EBT that the RRMPA could pick up for about $5,000 plus transport. Maybe a partial donation could be arranged.

Guess it just doesn't seem like a 'railroad museum of Pennsylvania' without the quinessential short line represented.

BTW Greg, when are you going to bring out an EBT tape?

> Hey, its in Pennsylvania. Spend the museum
> and states money and buy the place, open up
> the rest of the old route, and it would be
> one superb museum, that is both operational,
> and for tours(old shop buildings etc).
> Something to consider.
> Greg Scholl


The East Broad Top Railroad Homepage

ebtrr@spikesys.com

RRM of Pa has RDG MU car 800, PRR MP54E1 607, and Budd Pioneer III MU cars 246 & 247. DL&W's MU cars ran exclusively in North Jersey so I don't see a Pennsylvania connection.

see http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/about/roster/motive.htm


Electric City Trolley Museum Association

> Rick: What railroad is the single sheathed
> wood boxcar from?

Pere Marquette. I have the original number around here somewhere.

http://www.todengine.org
jrowlands@neo.rr.com

BTW there's a pair of DL&W MU cars (motor-trailer) at Steamtown. I understand heavy repairs were done at DL&W's Keyser Valley car shop (Scranton) at least until E-L came in, then possibly at the ex-Erie Susquehanna PA shop. So there is a Pennsylvania connection. Somebody who knows more about DL&W cars can tell us if they were built by a PA carbuilder.


Electric City Trolley Museum Association