"I’ve been told I live in an alternate universe, and been called a fanboy and a fool in this thread. I don’t appreciate that."

Waah, teacher, he called me names.

The sole basis of your "defense" is that you got to ride behind three different locomotives.

No basis to assert that it operates effectively, efficiently and when you made a specific recommendation (visiting locomotives); I explained with direct personal knowledge how an opportunity to do that very thing was blown.

It's obvious that you don't understand what's going on and you refuse to listen.


fool
foo͞l
noun
One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding.

You indeed remind me of an Apple Fan Boy. You tell somebody that Apple has inferior GPS and they just stand there telling how wonderful the latest phone is.

Steamtown always brings out the best in people.

Hey C-Z - From your post it appears possible that you may not be aware of the reporting feature on RYPN. When you are logged on, go to the post that you have an issue with and click the red exclamation point at the lower right corner of the post. This will give you a screen which enables you to report the post that you believe violates the guidelines and to elucidate your reason(s). Hope you find this helpful. Have a pleasant evening.

Well said.

There is a silver lining here in that at least the place does a nice job in the museum/exhibit arena and the many folks who visit with little railroad history knowledge go away better informed.

Perhaps, the NPS could post a nicely type written notice and display it somewhere prominently that would tell folks of nearby places they could visit to experience/ride live steam ( Strasburg,R&N,NH&I etc.) ?? I know, then I woke up and smelled the coffee.

Oh well, what do you want for a measly $ 6 million dollars a year....everything ???

Ross Rowland

My real ongoing concern is the efforts to improve overall professionalism in our avocation/vocation. Here is a forum labeled RyPN and I am fearful should one of our grant funders ever venture into the Interchange and start reading some of the stuff posted here.

Wesley

"Steamtown always brings out the best in people."

Are you suggesting this thread is any different from the sexism thread or any number of innumerable others?

Sarcasm aside, it does, or it did.

Some of the best, brightest and most dedicated people I ever worked with were at Steamtown.

Here's few:

The late Bernie O'Brien wasn't just a legend, he was a great and eager teacher. When Trains magazine published an article in 1974 called "Did we scrap steam to soon", I read it as a grade schooler. I was too young to understand it, but I sort of thought at least the ol' girls got a fair judgment after what seemed an ignominious and abrupt dismissal from service after thirteen decades of faithful service. I had no idea that decades later I'd work with and break bread with the author while discussing it (Bill Withuhn). The late Tom Shore, who fought for over a decade to get a "friends" group together and passed away the very day the IRS granted the exemption for the organization. Seth Corwin, who when he couldn't run the big engines any more, would bring his live steamers-and make innumerable kids of all ages happy. There's many, many more.

And the memories: Of Saturday dinners nights at Tom and Jerry's; the day we came in for an excursion and the late Mark Brennan realized he had two clergymen (Fr. Frank and Rev. Earl) on the crew and said "I'm hoping you guys have an "in" to make things go smoothly" and we all had a good laugh.

To watch watch what's going on now-especially after the publicly announced goals of five years ago is incredibly frustrating-seems like a betrayal of the people who thought they weren't just fulfilling a personal dream, but helping to build an experience for a population that is increasingly composed with people who have no personal memory of steam.

And so, for those of us that understand the place and its promise, we face two groups. Those that see the place little more than amusement park and have unrealistic expectations about the possibilities or the cost- and those that remain star struck and can see no wrong.

It pales in comparison, but when a friend who did three tours in Afghanistan recently commented that he devoted years of his life to a mission bungled by politicians and top brass-he wonders only to now wonder what the hell the purpose his time and the loss of colleague's life was there, I think I understood in some small way how he feels.

You want participation trophies, play T-Ball. If you choose to an express and opinion here, that's your right. But it's also my right to express my opinion-that another opinion is uniformed or unreasonable from twenty years of direct experience.

This captures it best, if not perfectly.


"Sadder still to watch it die
Than never to have known it
For you — the blind who once could see —
The bell tolls for thee…"


Rush, "Losing It" Signals

Offending post removed.

Super - ok, so what's the plan? How do we turn frustration into action, and action into success? What is the biggest stumbling block, and how do we effectively remove it?

From the foundation documents -

“Steamtown National Historic Site contains other resources and values that may not be fundamental to the purpose and significance of the park, but are important to consider in management and planning decisions. These are referred to as other important resources and values.
• Live Steam Experience
• Library
“

FYI.

I have resisted commenting on this thread so as not to encourage the OP, who obviously has a hidden agenda, but the recent rude posts have made me change my mind. The quote above, from the OP in this thread, indicates the agenda. Ludwig Von Mises is a member of the so-called Austrian School of economics, an extreme anti-government group subject to much scorn by real economists, especially Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman. In fact, Krugman has actually written TWO articles just in the last month ridiculing the Austrian School, for example for opposing the Covid stimulus of the past two years. My favorite Krugman articles on von Mises is entitled Soup Kitchens Caused the Great Depression, which is von Mises thesis, https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/ ... f-edition/ Essentially von Mises argued against the New Deal and any attempt to solve inequality (which Austrian School/ libertarian types decry as an attempt at a pattern, whereas the only just economic outcome is to let the cards fall where they may, so as to encourage workers to work for below-subsistence wages). Just do a search on "Paul Krugman Austrian School" or "Paul Krugman von Mises" and you will find dozens more such articles.

Why does von Mises matter in this thread? Like a lot of pseudo-scientific analysis it is just window dressing to cover for a hidden agenda, and I think it indicates why the OP is opposed to Steamtown: not because of any specific failures, but because it is government funded, and the OP would be opposed to anything Steamtown did, good or bad, for that reason. The Austrian School is a belief system bordering on a cult, it is to economics what Scientology is to science, generally ridiculed by real economists in the same way Scientology is ridiculed by real scientists. Among the members of the Ludwig von Mises Institute are Rand Paul and other right-wing anti-government types.

I am pretty sure of the identity of the OP, I believe he hosts a railroad-themed public group on facebook in which he posts charts and graphs claiming that the rise of inequality almost any reputable economist acknowledges (though they differ on the causes) is a mirage and that government shouldn't be used to correct it.
Edit: Sorry, I really dislike my own grammar mistakes.

I can’t say if your theory is correct or not, but if Steamtown was a covid patient, it would be on a ventilator. There are many things wrong at the park currently, and probably many more than I know about. It’s natural for reasonable people to give the benefit of doubt, assuming that all are as reasonable and well intentioned as themselves. This is, however, a fallacy.

We can’t fix the problem until we are honest with ourselves as to its extent and origin.

"I have resisted commenting on this thread so as not to encourage the OP, who obviously has a hidden agenda, but the recent rude posts have made me change my mind. The quote above, from the OP in this thread, indicates the agenda."

I find this offensive. I'm accused of covert agendas and by extension anarchy. (See how this works?)

Oh, if I had only been called a fan boy or a fool, I'd have no reason for offense.

If I had a covert agenda, would I cite the source or just plagiarize knowing few people would actually recognize it as a quote and search it.

This has nothing to do with a covert agenda. I have, and continue to read a lot of economics literature. I have an undergraduate degree in economics and an MBA so I've read a lot of people one group or another would find offensive.

Now as a general rule, Mises is as dense and unworkable as Marx, and yet Human Action AND the Communist Manifesto are on my book shelf, mostly because neither has much value on the secondary market and I have an innate revulsion to burning books.

I would also favorably offer John Maynard Keynes:

“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back”

Keynes was right on this, and not very helpful calling gold a "barbarous relic".

Does that make me a covert collectivist?

Many economists put their pearls of wisdom at the bottom of the holding talk of a portable toilet.

And so the best economics quote.

"If you laid all the economists in the world end to end, they still wouldn't reach a conclusion."

Lighten up. Stop imagining this is anything but a tempest in a teapot.

Post Script: I have been a private and public sector bureaucrat all off my professional life, I know of what I speak. You can consider that authoritative or indicting as you see fit.

@6-18003

"Super - ok, so what's the plan? How do we turn frustration into action, and action into success? What is the biggest stumbling block, and how do we effectively remove it?"

That depends on what your definition of success is (see what I did there, paraphrasing President Clinton, I must have a covert agenda).

Seriously, that is the problem. What is "success"?

Here's the problems as I see them. I may or may not post ideas later, as I've been advised of a possible cancellation and I think nothing will actually change.

1.) Like most Federal Legislation, the two major pieces PL 99-591 and the later enactment which remediated deficiencies in the initial law (the number/name escapes me at the moment) merely conveyed certain properties to the National Park Service. No federal legislation ever defined defined "program requirements". Instead, what happens is that the NPS is provided with moneys every year, some in the form of grants reserved specific projects. This is not unique. Congress routinely passes laws that lack specifics. When for example, the Congress passed the RSIA of 2008 that they didn't prescribe the requirements for Conductor Certification, they ordered this:


§ 20163. Certification of train conductors
‘‘(a) REGULATIONS.—Not later than 18 months after the date of enactment of the Rail Safety Improvement Act of 2008, the Secretary of Transportation shall prescribe regulations to establish a program requiring the certification of train conductors. In prescribing such regulations, the Secretary shall require that train conductors be trained, in accordance with the training standards developed pursuant to section 20162.

Hence we have 49CFR Part 242

So it is that the enforcing agency is granted enormous latitude in fulfilling what I think is alienation of responsibility. When Superintendent Hagen brought the F Units to Steamtown, he was acting without any specific expression of legislative intent. Since they were interesting, and told a part of the story of steam-its demise, one could make the case that it was within some implicit authority-but nowhere is there some section of the law that says "The Superintendent may use diesel power".

Congress didn't specify that the NPS should restore, maintain or operate so many locomotives, operate specific types of trains or do so on a prespecified schedule.

2.) The NPS really has no special "core competencies" to bring to Steamtown.


The Bulk of the NPS units are either "Woodsy Owl" natural places that if left relatively undisturbed follow a natural course and regenerate to some extent. They also have a great many places that are static and the visitor experience is sight. Nobody expects for example to go to Gettysburg and fire 58 caliber shot. Steamtown is programmatically unique and is engaged in consumptive use of mechanical objects. Every maintenance manager and every Superintendent needs 2-3 years to become acclimated and conversant with a railroad environment.

3.) Contrary co614, Steamtown is underfunded-if you want a regular excursion and multiple operating locomotives

One only has to look at 20 years of NPS budget "Green Books" to see how there's been a consistent drop in staffing, from I think the 90's to mid 40's Full Time Equivalents. The fact that there's more or less a consistent number of folks at the top, means the gradient of this drop is even more pronounced. Even though there's a running joke about a "Lackofwanto", 6M doesn't go very far with 60 acres and a large building to be lighted, heated and maintained, plus shops and equipment.

4.) There's nowhere to go.

Over the years, when visitors would inquire about the excursion, inevitably they wanted to know how long was the ride, what's the destination, and "what's there". There really isn't much in Moscow other than the station and the offerings from the good folks at the LWV Chapter. Strasburg is short enough that it doesn't need a "destination" and The R&N has Jim Thorpe. If they go to Tamaqua, the station there has a full service restaurant, even though Tamaqua is in a CRIZ Zone. The Carbondale Line has somewhat better offerings, but you don't have the thrill of the hill with locomotives working a near 2% grade.


If you've read this far and you are thinking this guy reminds me of Mr. Potter from It's a Wonderful Life (according to George Bailey "a warped, frustrated old man", well I'm not really old, but the rest I've already thought.

I will chime in with my two cents here, leaning from the opinion as somebody who has only been to Steamtown once as a railfan and who lives far away from the operation.

*There was no steam running, but the museum presentation was first class (other than some laughably outdated video segments). In particular the Spang Chalfant & Co display that used cutouts in the steam engine to show interior elements. Yes, a live steam engine teaches a lot; but that is a case of taking a static engine which would never turn a wheel under steam again and using it to illustrate some real steam principles.

*In the same trip we also stopped at Altoona with the Railroader's Memorial Museum and the Horseshoe Curve. Mind you, I still didn't get a chance to see Strasburg, or the EBT, or the Reading and Northern, New Hope, or any other major railroad operations in Pennsylvania on that trip either. The region is still very heavy with rail attractions with several major steam operations in the state and neighboring state borders.

So if the point of contention with Steamtown is that its government ran, lets just pretend as a thought experiment that it was a private or non-profit museum instead; with the exact same accomplishments and situation of a surprise move to Scranton from the former Bellow Falls site, and all the legacy from decades at the Scranton site. Honestly, I don't really see much difference than say how the EBT had a decade long steam hiatus, or how the Western Maryland has a several years long steam hiatus, or how the Conway Scenic's only operational steam engine is a 0-6-0 and not some "grand 4-6-2" or some other size measurement contest like that... If Steamtown was a private or non-profit organization and we were criticizing them for how they chose to spend their funding or "why no steam?" we would surely get blowback on this forum for being "overly critical" and "not understanding the rigors of steam locomotives and the preservation industry." I know, because I have been the foamer who has said those things before about other operations, only to get slapped back in the face when counter arguments were presented. What makes Steamtown the scapegoat that we can heap the criticism we wouldn't dare say about other operations? If we panicked like this every time a single railroad had to run an all diesel season with no steam, or had to skip a single season due to catastrophe (be it global pandemics, equipment failure or weather damage etc.) it would be impossible for anything to get done in this field.

Yes the lack of live steam currently at Steamtown is a knock against its founding mission... however... that comes after several years of successful operation of their 0-6-0 which seems likely in line to return to service next year or so with some repairs... in a region that is already amply blessed with steam operations a short drive away. Frankly, its a whole lot of panic over what amounts to a big nothing burger in my opinion; there are still plenty of local options for steam to be seen in the region, and in the meantime Steamtown is still presenting a nice museum that has some unique insights with their displays that can't be seen at some of the operations focused railroads. If you wish to complain about pork barrels and NPS management, I dunno write your local congressman or something because its kicking the pricks since the world of congressional spending is outside our control here. Or go to Strasburg or the Reading & Northern, (or even soon enough the EBT) if you really really really need your Pennsylvania steam fix.

All the more ironic when we take a step back and remember this whole saga began with some guy shoving an eclectic bunch of Canadian steam engines into a rusted out railyard up north in New England anyways. The Scranton NPS site is definitely a far more dignified stop on the journey of Steamtown than a future in Bellow Falls, Vermont would have been anyways.