Where do you get your “98%” stat from? It sounds like McGrath gets it from personally speaking with the actual guests.

Frostburg and Cumberland are not big destinations. Cumberland is the northern terminus of the C&O Canal which ran from Cumberland to Washington, DC. The towpath is now a hiking/biking trail and there is a visitor center in Cumberland. The only real draw in Cumberland is the WMSR. There is also a popular hiking/biking trail that parallels the WMSR. Frostburg has virtually nothing to offer tourist-wise.

I think we all want to believe that steam makes a significant difference particularly in Polar Express. Some of the top attendance venues there have been Cuyahoga Valley (no steam), Grand Canyon (have steam but on Polar?), Texas State (steam, and done nicely theatrical with a grand steam entrance). It can really add to it but it's not automatic and there's certainly no direct correlation that I've seen - other factors kick in more than power. And the best time to run Polar is at night.

Certain railroads show steam off quite well, WMSR among them, but the best seat in the house was always in the Man O' War headed upgrade with cinders raining down like a sandstorm and enough curves to show off. Coasting downhill, on the way back, I'd guess that about 30% of the riders were dozed off. Other operations (Cuyahoga Valley sticks in my mind) offer virtually no view of the power at all from the train itself, you're better off trackside. When 765 visits, the photo runbys are phenomenal, but on-board is a yawn. CVSR's genius has been to rope off the best sites to only train ticket holders for the runbys and include them with the on-board experience.

In the event basis, it's all about the show. Works when steam is able to show off.

I disagree. While Cumberland is no Orlando, there is a bunch of skiing, boating and other outdoor stuff in the area (~1hr). It's a popular "mountain house" area for folks in the DC/MD/VA region.

The WMSR is a good option for folks who want to go enjoy the scenery but who aren't boat, bike or hike people.

Frostburg itself also has a university and a "cute little downtown" that was pretty hopping last time I was out there.

I don't imagine people would be spending a week out that way, but as for weekend getaways? Definitely.

Which is why the railway bikes in Frostburg are a thing... right?

Maybe the mileage varies, but I can go several days on the RR I'm on without anyone asking about when we'll get our 2-8-2 back in operation. Not one rider asked me about at all this month.
Now, that might mean that I'm dealing with just those who don't care, and the ones who do just won't show up until steam returns.
I used to think that the whole "nobody cares what's up front" thing was hokum until I started crewing trains on a tourist RR. Now, I completely believe it.
All that said, I also expect once we get the steam engine running again, we will get increased riders, but I now think it won't be that high of a percentage that I would have thought before I started volunteering.

Regarding the CVSR, it's one thing to give exclusive access to the runby site to ticket holders (I avoid areas like that anyway because they are generally a zoo), but CVSR management, in collusion with the local and Park Police have made it virtually impossible to get line side photographs when steam is in the park. They have blocked off all the pull-offs, most of the parking lots close to the tracks, and you can forget even thinking about pacing the train along Riverview Rd. when steam is in town. They even chase photographers away from a couple of places where it's possible to hike-in on a trail that comes along the railroad. It is truly all-out war against the fans - and even the daisy pickers - who just want to get a few photos. Living in the area, I know that if I want to see 765 working hard I need to just go to the grade in a residential allotment at MP 43 and watch it go by there, since it's inside the City of Akron and the railroad clique can't chase you away (probably until they read this). And I don't know what the big problem is, the trips with 765 in recent years have just about all been sell-outs, so it's not like they are losing big money to "freeloaders", and if they weren't such big pr***s about it they might sell a few more tickets. This isn't recent, it goes back to the beginning of the operation, when the Midwest Chapter leadership provided the train and poisoned the well against the fans 45 years ago, but it's an attitude that has persisted.

Agreed. I visited one year for steam in the valley. I bought a ticket and rode the first trip and planned to chase the second trip. I was so disgusted by the attitude towards railfans I’ve never been back and don’t reccomend the trip to anyone. The conductor on the train even made some rude comment about not wanting any foamers in the vestibule. Couldn’t believe the ugly attitude.

Do you work on the train or sell tickets? It could be the customers who care either called / emailed to check on motive power, or asked at the ticket office. When I was conductor I wouldn’t hear as many comments / questions as when I was selling tickets and helping to answer the phones.

Ross, that 25% premium on steam power reminded me of something I was told years and years ago, and that was that steam was good for about an additional 25% boost in ridership. Keep in mind you needed a good operation to start with--clean cars, working restrooms, all the rest, and of course ideally a route worth riding, or else a ride with other attractions (Strasburg being in the Amish country is an excellent example.)

But if you had that, steam was icing on the cake.

As noted, this was a long time ago, and the market has changed to "event" trains, yet the remark that steam can command a 25% premium still sounds like there is a viable market--again, provided the bones of the operation are good to begin with.

Interesting thoughts regarding ridership and it’s relationship to steam power. However, what I fail to see is any hard data. For example, I’m reading a lot of posts that start with ‘everyone I talk to...’, but nothing that provides actual numbers. How many is everyone? Is that 10 patrons? 100? Or 2? How much has revenue increased or decreased on an annual basis at your operation and what was pulling the train? How does that relate to operating costs? Put all of those numbers together and then you have something tangible.

co614 raises some interesting points with quantifiable data. co614’s railroad could be the perfect example to put the debate to rest. Not counting special events/themed trains, (and looking at years prior to 2020 and COVID), how many passengers rode the train and what was used for power?

After 3 years of offering a steam or diesel version of the North Pole Express product we have found that a 25% premium is about the max. that the buying public will support.

We've also calculated that on the other themed trains ( Mothers Day, Halloween, Leaf Peeper, etc. ) the demand for steam is not sufficient to support it at a meaningful premium.

If you calculate that you need to put at least $ 2,000/day into a long term reserve fund ( to pay for the 1472 day FRA drill when it comes due) and another $ 500/day into the running repair fund then you'll only operate your steamer when she can command a fare that will truly support her.

Of course we have detailed numbers behind this but those are obviously proprietary.

Ross Rowland.....part time hogger NH&I RR

The debate will never be put to rest. Each railroad and operation is unique.

There are many successful operations that have never operated steam. That doesn’t mean all operations can drop steam and not see a significant loss of attendance. There are so many variables.

If anyone is interested, I have and teach the data analysis tools to evaluate questions like this. The challenge is separating the "effect" of the steam power from the random pattern of consumer demand. There are mathematical tools to give odds or probability estimates of whether what you are seeing is really an effect or just a lucky random effect.

If you have some data, I would be interested in looking at it. Typically we need at least 20 data points to make a statistically relevant statement.

What's being left out of the discussion is the manner in which the railroad markets.

Put diesel on the Strasburg, the EBT the WW&F, the Durango & Silverton, etc. and passenger traffic will drop 50-75% overnight.

On the other hand, there are lines that have never had steam as part of their modern marketing. Among them, the Potomac Eagle, the Verde Canyon RR, and the Royal Gorge RR.

The problem arises when you put steam on your brochure and then have a diesel on the point. A myriad of railroads have had this problem, from the Wilmington & Western to the Western Maryland Scenic to the Grand Canyon Ry.

Decades ago, W&W officials told me that when they marketed steam (98) and the SW1 came out on the point, passenger loadings dropped 50%. Nowadays, likes like the W&W downplay steam on their marketing, and that problem is alleviated a bit, or so I've been told. The railroad is FAR more into "event marketing" than previously. Ditto other lines like the Verde Canyon--seemingly every weekend is something like "Raptors," "Scales & Tails," "Ales on Rails," or the like. You simply aren't going to pull in repeat traffic just having a choo-choo, as Strasburg or the EBT or others will attest.