The situation was essentially identical to the Grand Canyon Railway.

When the GCRY started in 1989-90, it was a 2-8-0 and four or five commuter coaches. The line also has 3% grades--BOTH ways.

Now, the minimum the railroad will consider running aside from a charter is eight stainless cars (with maybe one open-window car), and more typically 12-16 cars. The railroad would probably need a former Santa Fe 4-8-4, 2-8-4, 2-10-4, or the like to run steam solo on the line; the line's 4960 and 29 need diesels as both helpers and HEP sources (and can be run from the steamers via a throttle box in the cab).

Over the years, I have witnessed both trains too small to be realistically covering costs (four or five cars behind 734) and enormous 20-or-so-car "Autumn Leaf" trains on the WMSR, the latter with diesels on both ends.

What's going on with that 4-8-4 at the New Hope & Ivyland? That might've been a good fit (you know, if it wasn't still a kit).

I don't know if this has changed in recent years, but when I was there, running steam and diesel STILL required a second engineer because dynamic braking on the diesel locomotives couldn't be controlled from the cab. Since dynamic braking is almost cartoonishly cheaper than buying new brake shoes more often, they didn't want to set retainers on the cars and use the automatic brake, particularly on the long hill down from Imbleau. I have heard that Mr. Hadder had a newer MU box set up in the cab of at least one of the steam locomotives, but I don't know if this newer box has dynamic braking capabilities. Hopefully he can comment on this.

Original trust went bankrupt, new trust hasn't gone anywhere.

When I worked at New Hope, the word on the block was that its internals were actually quite well kept, and that it just needed some minor work (along with being put together). I think the only part that was in bad condition was (is) the cab.

FWIW, the engine is essentially the property of the NHRR. Whenever someone plans on doing anything with it, the NHRR plans on charging $700K of back rent for all the years it's been on the property.

So is the possibility of 3028 running on the NH & I totally dead? I'm sorry to see the direction things have taken there. It looks like steam is only being used on the Buckingham Valley trips, and the prices are ridiculous. For my wife, 6 year old daughter, and I to ride coach would cost over $200, according to their website.

John Rembis

Welcome to New Hope. And then there's parking....................

So the more serious question: Can someone now BUY that loco from the NH&I for that $700K? If NH&I doesn't have "clear title" and plans to assess anyone that wants to do anything with it $700K in back storage fees, then you might as well just break out the cutting torches now...... because they've now made the loco completely "untouchable" to anyone but a Hollywood studio wanting to blow up an operating 4-8-4...........

What happens nowadays with most things "abandoned" in "storage" is they get auctioned off with no reserve to recover whatever can be had. The storage facility owner may have a figure in mind as to what they are owed for having it on the property, but the market will clearly have other ideas, and if the property owner wants to recover anything they had better take what they can get. Or maybe I've just seen too many episodes of Storage Wars?

I believe the long term plan is to restore the locomotive after they fix that CP 4-6-0. Which is also hinging on an expansion of their steam shops (they DID receive a grant for this IIRC, but I’m not sure when they plan on starting).

40 runs on Holiday trains, along with Buckingham trains on the off-season. As for the price, I’m not sure why it’s so expensive, but when I was working there there were a LOT of sold out trains. I know they plan on upgrading tracks and the station platform, so at least the money is going somewhere.

Here’s an idea: if we think a Northern Type would be a good fit, why doesn’t the WMSR try and pull a Strasburg, and sign a long term lease on AFT 1/RDG 2101? Restore it, run it for 40 years, and then give it back to the museum? I have no idea of its condition following the fire, but you’d be hard pressed to find any more available Northerns in the Northeast.

Funny thing is that New Hope actually leased the locomotive from the original group, who then transferred ownership to the new group with the lease still intact. They cannot claim ownership or back storage for a locomotive that they actively lease. Also I have it on good authority that no one from New Hope has ever reached out to anyone in the new group nor have any sort of official documents been produced calling out demands or questioning ownership.

For what it's worth, none of that info came from Mike. I was told this by the stationmaster.

Isn't it wonderful that the problem is growth?

Unfortunately it's not uniform growth.

I think about every operation out there has seen a change from a standard seat coach experience on a 'daily' train over to some kind of event-based theme. Some are stinkers, and some sell out every seat in the house.

In the northeast, once it hits the third week of September, you could sell seats on the coal in the tender. Still true, and now there's Christmas specials.

So your daily summer demand for the traditional excursion is declining, the events can be booming along with foliage - and at least part of the year (4th qtr) you need all the cars and power you can get hold of.

Knox & Kane (RIP) had 900 people on one October train to the Kinzua Bridge I was on, every serviceable car Sloan owned, and had the SY 2-8-2 on front and a diesel pusher on the back. Last year of operation I saw five people on a rainy early September after the bridge blew down and a diesel on the front.

And then you have to ask the really painful question - as you transition to event-based, is the motive power really the draw here? I'm sure for WMSR you're have a couple years of everybody wanting to see it, myself included, but then it's back to business as usual and the quality of the experience at the seat matters more.

Randy raises an important truth. With the possible exception of Strasburg Themed trains are the sustaining product for the short line tourist rail industry. I'd guess at New Hope that 90% of our ridership is carried on our wide variety ( Mothers Day Brunch, Memorial Day, July 4th., Autumn Leaf, Wedding Charters, and of course the big one North Pole Express

3 years ago we started offering 2 different North Pole Express products, identical in every respect except in motive power. One version is diesel powered and the other steam. The steam version commands a 25% premium price and especially in 1st. class often sells out first.

It has proved to us that there is a segment of the riding public willing to pay a premium to enjoy steam. Overall, however I'd say that segment is small and the vast majority are not riding because of the motive power.

Thanks, Ross Rowland

Mr. Rowland, you’d be surprised at how many people I talked to that were disappointed to hear they’d be behind 2198 rather than 40. If I recall correctly, the Santa Steam Spectacular (40’s train) would sell out a LOT more consistently than the NPE (diesel led).


Shifting gears, I think that it’s important to note that a lot of this has to do with name recognition. New Hope isn’t widely known even within the Delaware Valley, whereas Strasburg is known from coast to coast. People will naturally be more likely to actively look for excursions like this in the fall/holiday season. However, if there’s some other draw, like a large existing tourist town at one end of the line, things can be different.

Let’s look at the RBMN, and what they did last summer, even during COVID. In August they had 425 pull the standard Jim Thorpe excursions. I was there almost every weekend. Almost every train I saw was P A C K E D. At least, as packed as it could be given the current world crisis.

I haven’t been to WMSR, but if Cumberland and Frostburg are already big enough destinations without the railroad (like Jim Thorpe), people will ride. Jim Thorpe is known for having a train, but people stay and keep coming back for the rest of the town.

Not correct mcgrath618. The vast majority ( 98% + ) of our daisy picker riders who come to ride the non Santa theme trains do not, repeat do not care what's pulling the train as they're coming to be part of some special event and the train happens to be the vehicle.

For the Santa trains they have a clear choice with steam available if they want it.

Thanks, Ross Rowland