Old business / private cars -- pre-1890 origins

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:32 am

Another Survivor:

CB&Q #96, built by Barney & Smith in 1886 as CB&N #B-99, renumbered (when??) to #45 (looking for confirmation on this), later (when??) to CB&Q #90 (1st), then (when??) renumbered to #96, sold (when??) to Robert Wood, then (when??) resold to the Intermountain Chapter NRHS, currently displayed at the Colorado RR Museum. Modernized at an unknown date.

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:35 am

As posted in the Pullman heavyweight sleeper thread,

wosborn wrote:

Ted,

There is a heavyweight Pullman (?) car at Fredericksburg Texas which is believed to be from the Quanah Acme & Pacific Railroad, thought to be originally the personal private car of Texas rancher Samuel Burkburnett who died about 1922. If it is that car, Teddy Roosevelt rode on it for a wolf hunt in 1905.

The car number is 6666.

Do you have this car on your list? The provenance is uncertain....

Here are some pictures of it: https://www.fredericksburg-lodging.com/1894-private-pullman-palace-car.htm

- William Osborn

Rainier Rails wrote:

With that being a wood car, it would be in the parameters of the wood business car thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39555

I think the information is correct, other than when the Frisco acquired the car (and it was actually leased). Info on the Frisco website indicates it was 1925 (and the diagram confirms this), not 1922. Went back to the QA&P in 1950.

From the Frisco website: http://www.frisco.org/shipit/index.php?threads/business-car-general.849/

chris wrote:

•Leased to SL-SF 1925; Renumbered #1925.
•Renumbered #8 (5-9-1947)
•Renumbered #10 (3-24-1948)
•Returned to QA&P (12-29-1950)

I searched for but couldn't find any additional/accurate info about this car in several sources.

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:23 am

Another car located at the Alleghany County Fairgrounds in Angelica, NY, lettered as Shawmut #99. I ran a search but found no info. Not sure if this is a business car or not, or even what the history is.

7/2/15: https://www.flickr.com/photos/n8myc/19620697352/ (Bob McGilvray, Jr. photo)

7/2/15: https://www.flickr.com/photos/n8myc/19620697322/ (Bob McGilvray, Jr. photo)

There is a second car there as well, Pittsburg, Shawmut & Northern coach #278.

7/2/15: https://www.flickr.com/photos/n8myc/19620697382/ (Bob McGilvray, Jr. photo)

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

rswebber · **Joined:** Thu May 03, 2007 9:19 pm **Posts:** 43

In the FWIW department, we have the floor plan for the ELLSMERE at the Pullman Library.

ted66 wrote:

i was poking around the Internet to see if I can find any more information on the Ellsmere and ran across the Grand Isle preserved at the Shelborne Museum in Vermont.

The car was also built for the Pullman Palace Car Company about 1889.

if you look at Wikipedia for Grande Isle and go to the #3 citation you will link to Railroad Gazette for 1895; there is a tiny floor plan of the Ellsmere and several other cars. Apparantly it was displayed at the Colombian Exposition of 1893.

if anyone has access to that magazine they might be able to get a larger picture of the floor plan.

I am sure that Randy Hees and the Museum in Boulder City would like to know of it!

ted66

jayrod · **Posted:** Mon May 06, 2019 8:02 pm

Rainier Rails wrote:

Another car located at the Alleghany County Fairgrounds in Angelica, NY, lettered as Shawmut #99. I ran a search but found no info. Not sure if this is a business car or not, or even what the history is.

7/2/15: https://www.flickr.com/photos/n8myc/19620697352/ (Bob McGilvray, Jr. photo)

7/2/15: https://www.flickr.com/photos/n8myc/19620697322/ (Bob McGilvray, Jr. photo)

There is a second car there as well, Pittsburg, Shawmut & Northern coach #278.

7/2/15: https://www.flickr.com/photos/n8myc/19620697382/ (Bob McGilvray, Jr. photo)

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

#278 is an original PS&N coach. I don't know the builder but they claim it was built somewhere around the 1880's. #99 was a private car, a Frank Smith, that is not of PS&N ancestry. Don't know anything more about it. Angelica is where the PS&N corporate office was located.

Brian Norden · **Posted:** Mon May 06, 2019 10:37 pm

I have been told that Dr. Webb appears to have had three cars named "Ellsmere." Two of these may have had identical (or near identical) floor plans.

Randy Hees · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2019 12:57 am

Following up on Brian's answer...

Dr Webb had three private cars named Ellsmere.... The first built c. 1885, probably by Barney & Smith... the 2nd in November 1888 by Wagner... that car was rebuilt by Wagner in 1891 to the "current style"... and the third... the car at NSRM-BC, built to the same floor plan as the 2nd in December 1899... Three cars owned by the same man, two with identical floor plans lead to confusion...

We continue to research and document our and the other cars... Its a deep swamp...

Randy

nedsn3 · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2019 1:52 pm

Similar, if not a twin, to CB&Q 96 mentioned above, is another ex- Q business car in La Crosse, Wisconsin. Or maybe used to be in La Crosse, as I have not seen it in a few years. It is/was a wood car sheathed in steel, with truss rods and sealed windows, so obviously air-conditioned. It sits downtown with another car, on some sort of display, I'm guessing. Maybe someone has seen it more recently?
Ned

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Tue May 07, 2019 8:28 pm

That would be CB&Q #99 (2nd), built at the Aurora shops in April 1905, sold in July 1966 to Clint Jones (Pewaukee, WI), later resold to Trans Northern Inc. (Algoma, WI), later resold again to the Freight House restaurant (La Crosse, WI).

The other car with CB&Q #99 is MILW baggage-38 seat chair (originally 40 seat) #206 (built in shops, 1942, seating reduced 1943), to MofW in 1971, sold in 1974 to the Eau Claire Lumber Company, later resold to the Freight House Restaurant.

There was formerly 4 other MILW home-built lightweights and an outside-braced wood boxcar also on-site, with at least 1 of the other 4 MILW cars housing a hobby store, but all have since been removed.

I have the ID's for 3 of the 4:

MILW baggage-38 seat chair (originally 40 seat) #207 (built in shops, 1942, seating reduced 1943), to MofW in 1971, sold in 1974 to the Eau Claire Lumber Company, later resold to the Freight House Restaurant, later resold to Blair Dillman (Prairie du Chien, WI).

MILW 52 seat chair #425 (built in shops, 1937), retired in 1966 and subsequently sold, current status/location unknown.

MILW baggage-20 bunk dormitory #1309 (built in shops, 1947), retired in 1971 and subsequently sold, current status/location unknown.

Justin Nelson would probably have a little more info on these.

Here's a John Hill photo from 1982 showing all 6 passenger cars and the boxcar on-site: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1311781

nedsn3 · **Posted:** Wed May 08, 2019 12:30 am

Thanks Ted. Love the info on this site!

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed May 08, 2019 12:39 am

You're welcome.

Corrections from Justin Nelson on the MILW cars:

#425 and #1309 were not at the Freight House.

Besides the #206 and #207, the other 3 MILW cars were:

MILW 48 seat chair #542 (built in shops in 1948), later moved to Fremont, NE.

MILW 40 seat leg rest chair #649, ex-52 seat chair #552, nee-24 seat chair-8 section sleeper #5772 Granite Falls (built in shops in 1947, rebuilt in 1951 and 1956), later moved to Fremont, NE.

MILW baggage-20 bunk dormitory #1315, later moved to Fremont, NE, and now in Baldwin City, KS.