Amen!

Robert

How about the Buffalo Museum of Science? We need to think more about just getting her somewhere safe as opposed to where she can run.

[edit] There is also a railroad museum in Medina, NY. I sent them an email but if anyone has a personal connection there, please reach out.

All right. That's the spirit! It's up to us (and the owner). Let's rally and start knocking on the appropriate doors. No one giant identity is going to swoop in and save this, but all of us doing the little bit that we can,will! This is the Number 1 forum that all the others quote, so go forth and spread the word, shake the tree. Let's do this.

WNYGSEA showground in Alexander NY, perhaps 30 minutes away from Depew. http://alexandersteamshow.com/

They have a remnant of track it could be set on, and a boxcar as well. Even if it was only temporary.

Someone here will disagree. However, Expo Rail Canada would be a really good choice if they would be interested in displaying the locomotive and adding it to their collection if they have any room?

Robert

Ok folks, .....

Time for a reality check here.

I have said previously, the owner's asking price is not "unreasonable".

Having said that, the reality is that his asking price, versus the price that the locomotive will net if turned into razor blades, are not the same number. If scrapped, the locomotive will net significantly less than his asking price.

So, let me ask the question here -

Might it be possible that the preservation community is being played and manipulated into paying a premium for the locomotive by the owner?

The locomotive has been on the market now for quite some time. Many people have gone to Buffalo and kicked the tires. However, no one has been willing to pay the owner's asking price.

If media reports are accurate, the owner has received a number of offers which were significantly less than his asking price. He has chosen not to accept any offer less than his asking price (which is his absolute right).

Folks, .... What we see at work here is simply pure market economics of supply and demand. Currently, no one needs a heavy 2-8-2 steam locomotive badly enough to pay the owners asking price.

The scrappers will likely pay no more than $40k - $50k for the locomotive. Depending on weather conditions at the site, and the time of year when the scrapper would actually try to cut the locomotive up, that number could drop by $10k.

So, why would any rational owner basically impose a condition upon himself were he publically states that he will only accept 1/2 of his asking price (from a scrapper) and cut up the locomotive, when he could have accepted less than his asking price, but more than the scrappers willing to pay him? This notion that he'll only accept a scrap offer of $45k(+/-) for the locomotive, but not accept an offer $80k to save it, just does not make any rational sense to me. In fact, it seems purely made up.

It appears to me that the owner's position, that he'll "scrap" the locomotive, is likely a hollow threat. He has preserved this locomotive for a long time. He bought the locomotive to save it from being scrapped. Does anyone else recognize the pure hypocrisy of his "I'm going to scrap this tomorrow" argument?

So then, why create (or allow) all this horrible buzz about turning the locomotive into razor blades? Well folks, it all boils down to the owner's thinly veiled effort to try to change the market economics surrounding the locomotive.

No one wants to take the locomotive off his hands at his asking price. If the marketplace is not allowing him to dictate the price, how does he change that dynamic? He needs to manufacture a "crisis" with the hopes that someone will come up to his asking price to avert the so-called "disaster".

This whole 18+ page thread is proof that his calculated manipulation might actually work! People are scrambling to raise enough money to meet his asking price, not the price that the locomotive is actually worth in today's marketplace.

He's changed the economic dynamics by creating a completely arbitrary situation (which is obscured from view by the phony crisis that was create) that he can control at his own whim. People, it is the owner that made up the so-called "drop-dead" deadline. He can extend at his will, if he so chooses.

Quite frankly, the owner is a brilliant salesman. He is jerking everyone's heartstrings brilliantly. Like a true puppetmaster, you are all doing his bidding quite nicely. I guess people can be gullible enough to not see the fallacy of this situation.

Now, the owner does have a serious weakness that he should be worried about. Whether anyone (other than me) will recognize that weakness (and figure out how best to exploit it) remains to be seen. Given what I see being done, I know that I would litigate, as opposed to negotiate, a resolution to this so-called crisis.

That's just my humble opinion.....

One thing missed. The owner's health is in decline and he needs 100K today. He is trying to clean up his estate and have something to leave to his sisters. That is a noble quest in my book. I have siblings as well so can understand that aspect.

Second, He can get his price and more by selling individual components and has had several such offers for the air pumps, generator, etc.

Sad truth is parting out 5361 first and then selling the rest for scrap would get him is asking price and a little more no doubt.

While a shame to loose this mikado that above may be the only way this ends. Either way that will be how she rolls.

Robert

Eric is applying logic to this situation. Sorry Eric, logic doesn't apply. I've seen folks destroy historic piece just so no one else can have them; I've seen scrappers take great delight in destroying something in front of a potential purchaser just to watch them cringe.
I'm not saying this owner is like this, but there are folks out there like this. Humans are usually terrible at logic.

Robert,

I appreciate your desire to see this locomotive preserved. I too would like to see this locomotive preserved, and (if possible) to see it, at some point in the future, restored to operation.

When I see your statement above (which I have no doubt that you believe to be true), I can't help but notice what appears (to me) to be couple of obvious contradictions and concerns.

I can appreciate the owner's desire to leave an inheritance for his siblings. I agree with you wholeheartedly that such a desire is a noble cause. I can appreciate the issues regarding healthcare costs for senior citizens living today in the United States. If his health is beginning to fail, I can appreciate the owner's desire to liquidate his assets in order to be able to meet his medical needs.

I agree with you that he certainly can "part out" the locomotive. The point which I respectfully disagree with you is whether he can, in fact, obtain a higher price by parting out the locomotive.

I will agree that the air compressors, steam generators, and certain other mechanical items could fetch a fair price, those components still would need to be "removed" from the locomotive first (a cost which would likely be "deducted" from the purchase price). Given how long those parts have sat outdoors for, it is not clear just how much of a premium price those parts might actually command. All those components would likely need to be rebuilt. Given the uncertainty as to their condition, I don't presume those parts/items will command premium prices.

I will agree that the locomotive's collectable jewellery (i.e., headlight, gauges, builder's plate, etc.), if sold at auction, could net a significant amount of money.

Robert, I suspect you will now ask: So what is so obvious concern or contradiction about the statements quoted above?

I begin with: If the owner wanted to sell the parts off the locomotive, he would not need to play the "I'm going to scrap it" card.

He would need to only say - "the locomotive is being sold where is, as is." He could swiftly remove those parts which he feels he can get a premium price for. If he has true offers for those parts, he could (and should) simply sell them without delay. Any part off of the locomotive which can be used on, or in, something else, is a part that could be easily replaceable on the 5361 in the future.

However, many parts on the 5361 are unique to that locomotive, and are NOT interchangeable with other locomotives (other than the sister engines of 5361). It is my personal belief, were he to do that, the owner knows full well that whatever is left on the "carcass" (i.e. locomotive) would be sold for scrap.

If he was confident in that approach, and sure that he could command the premium prices for his parts, he would have done so already. I suspect he knows if he parts the locomotive out, he may not command a premium for many of the parts he currently might subscribe a much higher value to. With the few parts that might have had some value removed, the remaining carcass will sell for scrap.

To me, everything about how this whole debacle came about screams "I will sell the locomotive, but only if I get my price". I just don't see a genuine sense of urgency (whether by need, or as a result of outside influences), or a conviction to the higher purpose of creating a legacy driving this "crisis". I simply see a person trying to command a premium price for his locomotive in a marketplace which currently does not have a need for his asset at this time.

I will agree that my assessment is highly cynical. That is just how I view the situation.

I'll kick in some cash if someone starts a fund, with a credible plan to move and store or restore the locomotive.

That was one of the selling points of the 503 GoFundMe account (which I also made a modest contribution to), the organizers had found a group that was more than happy to provide a good home for that locomotive.

I've waited quite some time to weigh in on this, but if there was someone serious about acquiring and moving it, bringing it back home to Canada would be a great option. We have space to store it at our site, the former CNR diesel shop in Fort Erie, now the Niagara Railway Museum Inc. We are a charitable organization under the Canada Revenue Agency. We dont have the funds for it, but would be more than willing to work with anyone who is serious about this. No one wants to see this scrapped, but having a place for it to go is crucial in the plan. So I offer up our site for that.

Ok, so we have an appropriate place for her to land if we can get her out of Depew. That's half the battle!
Thanks, Ken - I sent you a PM.

Would he consider leasing the loco, in place, for a year, for say, $1,000? That would give us an extension. The seriousness of intervention in the matter would be made clear.

Again, I think he smells blood in the water, and is "going all in" because the matter is reaching a head.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp-s5361j08.jpg

Al Crisp here; This is starting to sound like a dyslectic Paul Revere[he jumped on his horse and rode off in all directions]. Please everyone take a deep breath and stop speculating. To quote Kelly Ann we are dealing with alternate facts here! I am trying to sort thru what is really what and move forward at the same time.
A couple things we can say for sure . First the deadline which for me came out of space is DEC 15,and I do not exactly why. Second the cost to get the engine lifted and rigged prepared for transit is quoted form 26,000 to 75,000 US. Third; I have talked to all the major Canadian Museum groups and they do not have the space, money or a rail connection. Fourth; I do not know all the details about the CT group's offer but it is dead. Fifth;I have been in touch with CPR and they did not say yes but neither did they say no, But corporate wheels turn slowly. Suffice to say they have been down this road before and once burned twice shy!! I will keep working that angle. Sixth please no crowd funding at this time for various reasons. In talking to the owner a couple more interested parties have come forth who are interested in the complete engine. If you wish to see this loco go home in one piece spend your energy approaching CPR and Culture Canada!! If and only if there was input from these groups would crowd funding make sense in my mind as show of good faith. He has also been approached by groups to buy various parts and as soon as any major piece[the Elesco] goes she is worthless for nothing more then scrap!! Cheers for now AL Crisp

As much as I would like to see this locomotive saved from the scrapper. after the 503 debacle in Texas, I will not donate a dime until I see a plan in place that includes a sound plan to purchase, move, store and/or restore.

I don't see the harm in crowdfunding, if a not for profit group makes a deal on the engine, the crowd funds could be donated to that entity to help off set costs. If a private group buys the engine the funds would be returned to the donors...