There's one other factor at work in the Great Deaccessioning Debate.

Steamtown NHS was lucky enough to have a formal process whereas certain pieces of rolling stock (and, we presume, other things like old tools or piles of ties or whatnot) are formally disposed of, or at least deemed "surplus" and offered.

With an awful lot of places, from the lowly depot museum to the nigh and mighty, the actual concept of "surplus" is a moving target and gray area.

I can personally cite numerous cases where organizations will officially say that they're holding on to certain pieces for whatever use--historic rebuilding, part of the core collection, parts, etc. But if someone came along with a well-reasoned plan that also sounds sensible and advances the entire cause of preservation (say, for example, someone wants to buy that former NYC GP9 and restore it to operation for a NYC-heritage operation, or trade you a functional Paducah GP10 rebuild for your not-yet-working GP9), then all of a sudden the priorities would change, and with good reason.

There are also instances I've seen where--to make up an example--the president and half of the BOD wants to keep a piece, and the VP-Operations, the CMO, and/or the entire shop force instead wants that "basket case" or "albatross" gone. Making a sincere, well-reasoned proposal to acquire said piece will be like throwing a rock into a hornet's nest--if everyone "involved" actually gets word of it, which is never a guarantee--but it had to happen at some point anyway.

As but one example: There have been photos posted of late on Facebook of Strasburg's old Industrial 120-ton steam derrick, now "rusting away" at the end of a siding at Leaman Place where it was put to "get it out of the way." Has the Strasburg announced it wants to get rid of it? No, not to my knowledge. If Joe Nobody goes up to the ticket window and demands to "buy" it (or, more likely, have it "given to" him), Joe is going to be politely denied, then mocked derisively in private the next day. If *I* were to show up and ask to speak with [the right names] with a serious proposition, they just *might* listen only because they may think I'm not clueless from past discussions and work. If Jerry Joe Jacobson shows up and offers to buy it for $XX,XXX, they'll probably say "when can you schedule the trailer at our transload?"
(This is in no way meant to denigrate, highlight, or insult the Strasburg and/or their management or personnel. I could probably just as easily say the same thing about a piece of rolling stock at the Grand Canyon, Verde Canyon, Durango & Silverton, EBT, Valley RR, Black Hills Central, etc.)

When it comes to the federal government reducing its ownership of equipment or even property, keeping this generic here, this is generally not an easy thing to do.

What we have seen so far on this discussion is that there have been some postings on various sites to include facebook relative to a reduction in the Steamtown collection. Again, I work with the DoD, and there is a very formal process to the handling of surplus DoD equipment

As we have found, the NPS uses the FBO to announce planned Steamtown acquisitions, whether that be for coal, building maintenance, car or locomotive restoration, or for scrapping services. Again this is a very formal process driven by federal law. I’m not sure many of us ever knew this bit of information but we can now keep a regular eye on the activities at Steamtown from a formal standpoint. I see this as a major step forward.

But, the handling of surplus equipment also has to be handled in some formal, legal, manner. There have been any number of topics on RyPN related to various pieces of equipment being auctioned off under this formal process.

With this in mind, was there a surplus auction for the equipment that was recently scrapped? And at such an auction were there no bidders? I would expect that this action would have had to be taken before the equipment was cut up.

Turns out that the NPS must use GSA Auctions (https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucal). A quick look did not turn anything up, but I would guess that some digging will turn up an auction for this equipment and that there were no bidders. I see an OH-58 helicopter is up for auction in PA right now, minimum bid is $100 and right now zero bids. I assume it will be scrapped if there are no bids.

So, out of this topic discussion we now know that those with an interest in Steamtown, and what may be available, must register and watch the FBO and GSA Auctions. And yes, it would be good to talk to the contracting officers that are mentioned in the FBO announcements as well as any other contacts provided. With the NPS, you can not rely on the old boy network, Facebook, or some discussion page. If you are serious, these are the steps to take. Turns out, its the law.

J.R.

Based on years of experience, the single hardest thing for a museum to do is get rid of a car. I have been involved in three scrapings and six or eight transfers in my career. I have also negotiated to acquire a number of pieces, getting one fully restored by the donor prior to my institutions acquisition. None of these transfers or scrapings was publicized. I cannot see how a major museum can put it out there that they are considering getting rid of something in a manner as public as a number of RYPN posters seem to want. There are donors to consider, volunteers to consider, the backlash of the public, this body included, what happens if we don't end up scraping or transferring. I have had cases of donors coming back to ask why we would get rid of their piece. I have had volunteers come back and complain that their favorite piece was on the chopping block. It isn't easy at all for a museum to make these choices. In every single case of scraping the car or parts of the car were offered to a number of different organizations that we identified as potential good homes for the piece. In some cases those homes took the car, in others they contacted other groups that could use the item or a part of it, but in still other cases there was nothing worth saving. Making your organization look like you are having a fire sale when it is rationalization and efforts have been made isn't good for business either.

No problem Scranton Yard!

With regards to someone scaremongering the idea of a certain future president's impact upon Steamtown:

Steamtown moved to Scranton, and the process of its transformation to a National Historic Site begun, under a president who, if you were to have taken his critics seriously, made millions homeless, wanted to starve senior citizens, the jobless and school children, trashed Constitutional rights, was going to start World War Three with the Soviet Union, and enacted a whole list of other decimations to the American "way of life."

Overwrought hyperbole looks foolish in politics, and even more foolish here.

And anything more whatsoever I would have to say on the issue, no matter how well-reasoned and neutral, would get this thread locked.

car57 - I see that you have reached out to NPS Preservation Specialist Bruce Mowbray via FB. Best of luck to you. Hope your efforts yield some much needed parts for your pieces back in the silo. Please consider sharing your experience as a guide to others who may have an interest in items at the site. Thank you.

Hi,

Just my point of view.

Unlike the NRHS and other railroad museums, Steamtown is National Park Service. There are three ways to do things: the right way, the wrong way, and the government's way.

As a point of historical note, The 200-odd miles of D&RGW narrow gauge from Alamosa to Silverton to Farmington was shown to the NPS in the middle/late 1960s. At the time, the only item the NPS had (I think) was the Promontory Summit National Park which was an interpretive static display at the time (more like the National Battlefield Parks that the NPS has lots of).

NPS has been reaching out to try to cover more than just battlefield parks in the past 20-odd years. Just like many others who try to do something in a field they know nothing about (operating and maintaining a railroad museum), they try to make it fit what they do know. Overall, I think the NPS running Steamtown is a good idea, they just don't know enough about the business to even know what they do not know.

There have been several bad news incidents associated with Steamtown (such as the PRR 1361 fiasco).

I hope that the NPS and the railroad museum and tourist operators can work together in the future to help the NPS understand the industry.

For what its worth.

Doug vV

Again, 1361 was NOT a SNHS project, it was another entity's project conducted AT Steamtown. The same way that fixing your car in your neighbor's garage does not make him responsible for the quality of your work.

I don't think he said it was. What I got from it is that because it happened there, misinformed people will forever associate the two together; unfortuantely.

Yes the 1361 project was a partnership between the 2 museums and yes Steamtown managed the project in its early days. Just setting the record straight. PM me for details if you want to know the whole story.
Mike Tillger

Under the heading of what can we do, while perhaps not related directly to Steamtown, we have seen a couple of individual efforts over the past few months focusing on saving some piece of equipment or another.

Here is yet another example:

Help Move a B&M box car by Orion Newall-Vuillemot - GoFundMe

https://www.gofundme.com/2kyjqsmc

I know nothing about the car, but its nice to see in several cases now where people, usually younger guys, have taken it upon themselves to make something happen.

I suggest folks on this board make at least a small donation and show support of such efforts.

J.R.

The B&M boxcar that is on Orion's radar screen is owned by RMNE (Railroad Museum of New England), and had previously been offered for disposition via Rail Swap and this board's Classifieds, during the last 18 months. A number of groups expressed interest, one sent a deposit (later refunded), but nothing panned out, and we planned to scrap the car. We have two cars of this series and this third one was surplus.

Orion contacted me two weeks ago, and expressed interest in B&M 77249. I told him it was available, come look at it. Yesterday afternoon, I showed the car to him and his mother, and a member of the Connecticut Eastern NRHS (Orion's "railroad adviser").

Our offer to him is: the car will cost you $1.00, if you move it by mid-October. After that, the price might start going up! A little "reverse incentive pricing" here!

Seriously, he is an intelligent young man with lots of energy and ideas, all things to be encouraged, especially when they are focused on railroad preservation things.

I fully expect this car will be a nicely-restored piece within 5 years.

Howard P.

I would encourage anyone sufficiently interested to take Mike Tillger up on his kind offer.

Suffice it to say that S'town owns a sizeable chunk of the sad 1361 fiasco and had FAR more to do with it than just providing a barn in which it happened.

Ross Rowland

Might I ask if the moderators could move Howard and JR Mays comments pertaining to Orion's efforts concerning B&M single sheathed box car #77249 to a separate thread? This might have some benefit to the efforts to preserve and restore the car.

Thanks.

Les

Hi,

No where did I intend to infer that the Steamtown was involved with that mess. It is one of many confusing items that happened there.

Steamtown was and is on a learning curve about doing something they might not have fully understoond.

My family had 13 members hire on to the PRR so my first thought was 1361.

I do not want to stir up argument, just provide examples to support my contention that NPS was in a learning curve with a starting point with government ways of doing things.

Doug vV