I stand corrected. Beats me what is going on, you would think it would be the job of a museum to go to the ends of the earth to find takers for this stuff, there are property owners who have no idea what the significance of the old car on their property is who go a lot further in trying to save them.

Yes indeed. Scrapping this equipment without notice to other museums is unconscionable! The trucks alone are/were worth more than Steamtown had to pay to have these artifacts scrapped and hauled away. What's next -- basket case locomotive?

I wish I knew more about this situation, but the word "unconscionable" seems pretty apt. It was unconscionable for Steamtown, as custodians of historic artifacts that belong to the American people, to allow those artifacts to fall into such a state of disrepair that scrapping was seen to be the only alternative. If Steamtown lacked the resources to carry out the preservation of these items, they should have offered them long ago to somebody who did have the resources and the will to preserve them, long before they were permitted to decay to this extent. If they failed to save hard-to-replace components in the dismantling process, the failure is all the more irresponsible, unprofessional, careless, foolish, and unforgivable. I hope I am being unnecessarily concerned.

There are entirely too many unanswered questions here. I hope the answers will be forthcoming. There are quite a few other items in serious disrepair at Steamtown, and I think we should all be very concerned about the possible implications for them.

Tom

This forum is where we should have read about it.....how many of us can join every preservation society facebook page ! I run the caboose facebook page and nothing was posted there, i am on a passenger car facebook page and still nothing, i run the Abandoned and neglected trains Facebook page and nothing came up on that......This forum was the first place it should have been posted whether we like RYPN or not it still serves a purpose of sorts.

Mike Pannell

Bruce Mowbray did say that the metal pieces and trucks would be saved both for steamtown parts sources and other interested parties, but that the wooden bodies were too far gone to be considered safe any longer. I'm afraid it was the responsible move considering the litigious society we live in.

If it's true that the trucks and other metal components were saved for other uses, I'll gladly take back my words above. There are a number of car bodies out there that are complete except for trucks, and this could benefit them.

I'd say my definition of too far gone is a bit different than theirs.... sure, there's some real bad rot, but they didn't seem to be sagging....I've seen worse....
Do they have some issue with offering unwanted equipment to other operations?

I posted this last October in the "All Dressed Up and No Place to Go (locomotives)" thread. Everyone who is lamenting any potential loss here, please take note. As to who to reach out to, start with Superintendent Conway.

"If anyone is part of an operation/organization that believes that an artifact, whether it be at Scranton or part of another large non-private collection, would be better off in their care, they should consider putting together a well-supported restoration/interpretation/business plan for that artifact and sending it to the current custodian of the artifact. Generally, it could start a productive conversation that leads to a sale, deaccession/accession, or a swap such that one or more artifacts are better preserved and more well utilized as interpretive aids. With the Park Service, there is a new Superintendent in Scranton who has some very specific priorities. I can not say if any further thinning of the herd is in the cards at STEA, but I can say that collection/inventory management was a topic with the Park Service people who assessed the Superintendent role after Kip Hagen passed."

Emphasis added.

Also, the FB page has some very good comments from NPS Preservation Specialist Bruce Mowbray. He says many of the larger parts are being set aside after the demolition (I guess except maybe that caboose ladder - which may be able to be straightened out). If you have a legit need for parts you see in these photos, reach out to him. The Park Service has a personnel directory on their website.

Added to make this easier for you:

Bruce Mowbray Bruce_Mowbray@nps.gov 570-340-5248
Deborah Conway Debbie_Conway@nps.gov 570-340-5184

Direct quote from what Bruce Mowbray posted on the facebook page linked above

"Are you kidding? There should be no complaints. These few items have been falling apart for years. Nobody has shown any interest in these decaying hulks. They were offered to museums but either nobody stepped forward or the interested party wanted Steamtown to transport the equipment. The steel parts will be salvaged to offer to museums or use internally for other projects. Believe me, I wanted the seats out of the wood coach for the hardware but even the door wouldn't open due to the failing frame work. Too dangerous to enter! The main focus is to remove the asbestos and lead paint that is currently on these cars and causing a hazard. Impossible without demolition. Be realistic folks. We cant save everything so we should remove what we cant save and focus on what can be restored. A huge list of what can realistically and should be restored has been an on going project at Steamtown. Be patient. Good things are in the works."

If the salvageable metal parts have been saved, the cars documented as much as possible, and the parts made available for other projects at Steamtown and elsewhere, then maybe the situation isn't so dire as I feared. That's good to know.

Tom

There is a photo of a caboose being scrapped and another car coupled to it. There is another photo of a passenger car being scrapped with a caboose coupled to it. I am not sure if that is the same caboose in both pictures, but in any case, I am not referring to that caboose.

I am referring to the caboose shown with a steel boxcar coupled behind it and a passenger car body on a flatcar coupled ahead of it. The photo is in the fifth post down on page one here, and it is labeled:

PICT0605.jpg [ 302.64 KiB | Viewed 1201 times ]

What I said about the caboose appearing to have originated in the 1880s and rebuilt with a steel underframe was directed at that caboose, but it may also apply to the one that is shown being destroyed. This is just my wild guess based on research of cabooses of the 1880 era. One identifier of that era is a cupola narrower than the carbody; with narrow running boards on each side of the cupola; and ahead of and behind it; and connecting to the main center running boards. I am not sure when that practice was discontinued. I am also not sure if the caboose I am referring to has that cupola arrangement, but it appears that it might have it.

I don’t know anything about the reasoning for this scrapping, but I can see a mindset that would make the choice based on the most modern elements of a car versus the historical antiquity. And of course, the cars with the most historical antiquity are likely to be more work to restore. However, there does seem to be a market for cars with the greatest historical antiquity, as once these are gone, they are completely and permanently lost history.

Probably the cyclical calls on this board and others for "something to be done" about the decaying collection at SNHS. Well, they did something. And while I have no personal involvement, I am a little put off by claims that no one has come forward to help preserve these pieces, as though railfans are guilty of the neglect and not the park service; Steamtown has not been friendly or accomodating to volunteers and many, many good ones have given up trying to make an impact there.

And yet there are many, many fantastic volunteers who are there, and who are making an impact there. So it's clear to say I'm not a big fan of your statement.

Yes, there's a thread there, including this timeless set of comments:

Matthew Hull: And over in RYPN land we have some people saying that RYPN should have been the first place to be notified of any scrapping. Quote - "This forum is where we should have read about it.....how many of us can join every preservation society facebook page! I run the caboose facebook page and nothing was posted there, i am on a passenger car facebook page and still nothing, i run the Abandoned and neglected trains Facebook page and nothing came up on that......This forum was the first place it should have been posted whether we like RYPN or not it still serves a purpose of sorts."


Stove Nelson: The RYPN is a joke [this from someone who should know; he said the scrapping could have been done better with 'a fusee and a magnet']


Phillip Blancher: If the people on RYPN got off their arses and did something instead of yakkin' more would be saved.

Richard Jahn: Didn't know anything about a caboose Facebook page, or passenger car FB page. RYPN posters complain more than they do........


It occurs to me that, entirely outside the realm of RyPN members volunteering at Steamtown NHS, the door is open for proactive inquiries about anything in their collection that someone else wants a home for, or parts/measurements from. This may be different from the old dog-in-the-manger owner or curator who wants too much for something or repeatedly denies it's 'for sale' until the scrappers are called on short notice... I think one thing this says, for everyone in the preservation community within the sound of my voice, is ask now, and ask in detail, if you can have anything you want out of the unrestored equipment pile.

Then ask again, in a couple of months, and again and again. It seems you'll have to ask in order to avoid having "triage" decisions made for you on a decidedly non-emergency basis.

I remember reading about the issues involved with the DL&W 565 cosmetic restoration and the lack of documentation and appropriate paper trail for the artifact leading to the cessation of the project.

Does anyone know if all the paperwork for these now destroyed artifacts was generated to document their existence? Since they "have been falling apart for years" that paperwork should have been prioritized.

Some of us are very close to giving up patiently waiting for good things to come...I attended nearby UofS and paid admission whenever I could afford to during my college years and continue to give where I can to at least the 3713 restoration. Seeing this equipment scrapping after the demolition of the condemned storehouse building several years ago is very disheartening.

--Joe Bania
Trumbull, CT