Well put--and continuing on that, I'd also look at all the other stakeholders in the process.

Starting with the ones who control right-of-way and funding use, first, though--and first order of business would be NYDEP. Because of environmental laws, ESPECIALLY the environmental impacts of an AASHTO standard trail (as was stated in the Adirondack Scenic thread) would likely require some kind of study under NEPA and whatever state policies handle environmental impact reports. That in turn would probably result in NYDEP seeing the EIS and promptly responding with "You want to build WHAT on our land?", followed by negotiatons where NYDEP has the upper hand against the trail every step of the way. They clearly want access control, so a rail trail--public egress to their site--is a no-go.

If it were up to me, NYDEP needs to be notified about this trail plan, and possibly restoring the rail line needs to be sold as advantageous to NYDEP so they have a vested interest in actively defending CMRR. Think about "what's in it for them". Do they have water treatment facilities near the line? Would they want the option to be able to bring their chemicals in by rail? This is what I'd look at.

Then there'd be FEMA, who would want the grant money back for Boiceville. Check if the agreements for the funding have some clause in them specifying they HAVE to go towards that project. It might be like that TIGER money that Cal HSR got, where if the project was axed that money would have to repaid to the feds, among other things that'd open up. Someone who knows legal jargon needs to pick apart that contract and again, bring this up to FEMA.

County businesses are also major stakeholders in this. If the Facebook page is any indication, businesses WOULD suffer, and not just from the loss of the train itself but from the bad reputation Ulster County would get. And by losses of sales taxes, it hurts Ulster County itself.

Now, when Fillmore & Western--a similarly-prominent railroad in a similar agreement with Ventura County, much like to CMRR was threatened with eviction by under similar pretenses, a grassroots campaign sprung up almost overnight, started a petition on Change.org, and got about 2,000-odd signatures. When I went to sign it, there was more to it than just "playing trains"--no, most of the signatures were people who were concerned such a decision would have adverse effects on the Heritage Valley!
And what's more, that was enough for VCTC to take notice, and they had spent an equally long time trying to boot F&W out. CMRR, other rail preservation groups, and the railfan community at large need to get a campaign rolling for this like what happened with F&W. They're alive, kicking, have their steam engine running again, and are drawing crowds.

DISCLAIMER: This is only my $0.02 on the matter but by all means, if it's useful--take it!

These are very good and thoughtful posts, but I'd like to make one point in response.



There's no water treatment plant in the area, but NYDEP does have an office and water quality testing laboratory in Kingston. (I know someone who used to work there.) They are absolutely aware of the situation (it involves a right of way across their land, after all), but my understanding is they have no use for the railroad and would very much prefer it wasn't there. The NYDEP is not going to be a friend to the CMRR -- which is why if the rails are removed from Ashokan they're probably never going back, and there probably won't be a hiking trail either.

-Philip Marshall

What was the other group here that had a former owner/lawyer jousting for money and scrap the line to get the money? They finally got an agreement and the money paid and the group is doing well now, but one of the conversations about the line is the rail line was somewhat integrated into the land shape, messing into that, properties sold changing the land structure would foul up some land practicalities, I don't recall the discussions very well but hit some memories here, there is far more to the stories here and the CMRR railroad line was built where it was for a reason and it wasn't joy rides for tourists, let alone tear it up for zooming snowmobiles.

I'm afraid I don't remember that well, and I think you may be confusing the Catskill Mountain with the Adirondack Scenic (that's the line which the snowmobile crowd wants for a racetrack; as far as I know, the sled crowd isn't a factor in the Catskills), but in either case, for both railroads, there is more there than meets the eye, particularly in regard to property rights.

In other words, the owning entities--the county in the case of the Catskill Mountain--have some VERY important property and access rights that go away with the railroad. This is one case where taking the tracks out would be a first class blunder.

Keeping a railroad in for access rights has plenty of precedent, by the way. I recall that the narrow gauge Waynesburg & Washington was kept alive for quite a few years by owner Pennsylvania Railroad for just this reason. Traffic consisted of a converted truck that ran down the track maybe once a month to maintain the franchise rights and take minimal care of the still narrow gauge track. This eastern version of a Galloping Goose did this from the end of real operations in the 1930s until the line was revived and standard gauged in, if I recall, the 1950s or even later.

Perhaps someone can fill in details or make corrections, but the point is sometimes you need the rights a railroad has that nothing else does, and then it's a good idea to keep the railroad around.

CMRR equipment at Kingston Plaza, awaiting a hopeful return to duty:

http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=230829

http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=230830

http://photos.greatrails.net/s/?p=230831

EH

Would the county have to file for abandonement with the STB to rip the rails out for trails? Its obvious there is still potential freight use, and obvious for the passenger tourist runs.

All i know is most or all rail to trail lines were made from already abandoned lines, not from ripping out active tracks.

According to our research, the line was officially abandoned on April 1, 1977. It has been out of Federal Jurisdiction (ICC/STB) since that date. EH

That is from June 21, 2015.

While that article is a year old, it really cuts to the meat of the issue here across Ashokan Reservoir. You want to look at the questions asked by the legislature - which are long, and pointed: https://www.scribd.com/doc/265390056/Re ... ure-on-MOA All the gory details are pretty much in there.

Key to this is right in front of you; at the time it was called a memorandum of understanding, but by the end, it became a full signed agreement with a payment by NYCDEP; by any other terms, a final contract as negotiated.

You also have to look at page 14 with the 'what if we decide to hold off and not sign off on the MOU...' on page 14. Pressure was certainly applied/implied.

You can't appreciate how carefully this was done by NYCDEP unless you read that. Any excursion railroad operator that would wish to operate with this kind of agency and underlying land easement as part of the deal, that really wants you out and will pay your landlord to do it....well, draw your own conclusions as to that level of commitment.

I believe the text of the actual memorandum of understanding on the Ashokan Trail is also on scribd:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/265392825/Ashokan-Rail-Trail-Contractf

They're living on the fear presumption a train is more polluting that a trail, and not studying the facts.

Did they not think about all them cars driving around, look at any parking lot at oil splotches and whatever else on the ground and all the air emissions cars do.

I suspect they are considering the consequences of 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel running down the hill from a locomotive derailed on that track on the dike.

So its over and the clock is ticking, where is all this equipment going?

^The CMRR put in bids to operate the Kingston and Phoenicia track. They may be accepted.

People are not happy that the trains have stopped running.