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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:21 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 am
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Last edited by Kelly Anderson on Fri Nov 29, 2024 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:52 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:08 am
Posts: 220
Location: Whitefield, ME
Books:

American Iron, 1607-1900 mentions the manufacture of planished iron like Russia Iron on pages 194-195, along with a copy of an advertisment

https://books.google.com/books?id=osSG7ceTGekC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq=russian+sheet+iron+advertisement&source=bl&ots=IzNjqlfbor&sig=fHp3BHSih8qYf0j-VNvu6M1KfjM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=STWdVbvnLcSmgwSDm4HwCQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=russian%20sheet%20iron%20advertisement&f=false


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:12 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:51 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Southern California
Here is a photograph from about 115-130 years ago that shows a reflective boiler jacket. The locomotive is Carson & Colorado #1 and the view was taken at the summit of Montgomery Pass (in Nevada where present-day US highway 6 crosses the White Mountains near the California border).

The Baldwin Specifications for the locomotive calls out for a boiler jacket of American Iron. (click on image of spec to enlarge)

Attachment:
File comment: Nevada Historical Society photo RR-1662
RR-1662-C&CRR Montgomery Pass JP300 i_reduced2.jpg
RR-1662-C&CRR Montgomery Pass JP300 i_reduced2.jpg [ 91.47 KiB | Viewed 7790 times ]

Attachment:
File comment: Detail of Nevada Historical Society photo RR-1662
RR-1662-C&CRR Montgomery Pass JP300 i_cropped.jpg
RR-1662-C&CRR Montgomery Pass JP300 i_cropped.jpg [ 120.34 KiB | Viewed 7790 times ]

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Brian Norden


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:36 pm 

Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:41 am
Posts: 100
I've always seen Russia Iron as being either a very Pale, Pale, Pale Green or a Bluish Gray in color or both.. the correct term is Russia Iron. here's wikipedia's definition of Russia Iron.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_iron


Mr.Starr


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:48 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:10 pm
Posts: 181
Location: TN
Something that I have been curious about with this subject.
Are these blue/green/grey effects something that comes with age?
This is freshly treated metal and I recall something that the WW&F guys said constant oiling/scrubbing is part of the jacket maintenance for the coating. So I wonder if these effect will either come out in time or if it has just happened because this maintenance regimen has been slacked of or eliminated over the years of existence of known Russia iron examples.


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:24 pm 

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 2492
That might be possible, although I expect it's likely that the 'green' may come from oil oxidation over the 'battleship to charcoal gray', but not from the dark blue (or black) kind.

I noted that a link from one of Don Strack's D&RGW pages, concerning 'green boilers' on some of the narrow-gauge power, referenced a list of boiler paints which included "Russian Black". This indicates two things to me: in some contexts, boiler jacket material was known to be 'Russian", and at least at D&RGW it was known to be a dark color. My suspicion is that, as I seem to recall in other contexts, "Russia iron" or "Russian iron" had come to be a generic term for antirust-coated polished or planished thin sheet ... and the color associated with it could me that of the 'material of trade' more than the expensive imported original at some point.

When I was young, I thought of Russia iron as large sheets of blued steel, similar to the oxide finish on watch parts. Not the pale or peacock blue, the dark, almost midnight blue with purple and almost red highlights in glancing light. With oil rubbed over the finish as an important 'constituent' of the finish; without that, you'd get fine 'tendrils' of rust, expanding under the oxide to form patches. The finish turns a lighter and different apparent blue with sky reflection, but it is inherently blue, and in the darker end of the 'blue' family.

But that doesn't change the historical colors Russia iron actually had, or the colors the 'imitation' American iron that was rolled, or the follow-on 'patent' products or oxide processes would have.

Alas, I think this situation is like that of the famous "Delmonico steak", where likewise the supposed method of production is known, but even substantial and important other details of the 'experience' seem to have been lost, or made to indeterminable that the 'true' taste is irretrievable with any authority...

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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:58 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:56 am
Posts: 604
Location: Rochester, NY
More info to add to the mix:

http://gold.mylargescale.com/scottychao ... page2.html

thanks,
Scot


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:37 pm 

Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 211
Brian,

That's one wicked shiny jacket on number 1. Great picture, thanks.

Chris


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 Post subject: Re: Looking for Russia Iron Resources: Update
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:11 am 

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:08 am
Posts: 220
Location: Whitefield, ME
Well, we are wrapping up our report on the boiler jacket for #9 and I wanted to recap some interesting discoveries I've made during the process. My work was mainly concerned with the historical aspect of planished iron manufacture, trade, and use. More specifically to the WW&F project it involved consulting the business records of the Portland Company to see what data I could cull.

I've learned a lot and want to thank everyone here who contributed to this discussion. It was certainly eye-opening and helpful. For example, when I began I thought I was researching 'Russia Iron' but it became clear that I was more generally studying planished iron.

One thing I've learned from studying old trade journals and advertisements is that by the 1870's importation of planished iron had dwindled and had been superseded by domestic planished iron production. Based on information regarding the manufacturing process it seems likely that the earliest planished Iron produced in the U.S. was largely substandard to the Russian product. By the 1880's, however, the domestic product seems to have been at least as good as the imported product leading customers to choose american iron over the russian product. This may have been helped along by government tariffs placed on the imported iron. Lastly, I want to draw everyones attention to the ARMCo ingot iron, polished advertisement from the 1930 Locomotive Cyclopedia. This product, considered by ARMCo to be, in their words, the equivalent of russia iron was probably the last product on the market related to the old 'russia iron' and by 1930, its days in production were likely numbered.

I am still trying to understand whether the ARMCo 'ingot iron, polished' product was created using a chemical process or the traditional process of producing planished iron. I have seen references to it in ARMCo corporate publications like the one below, but have never seen a more complete description of its manufacture.

https://books.google.com/books?id=QRNFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=ARMCO+Ingot+Iron+polished+production&source=bl&ots=tLKqqtlKZ8&sig=BnXUVYEtSlz0GwOwQI5x-b-RqJY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi___jxwo_LAhUrt4MKHbgpDDEQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=ARMCO%20Ingot%20Iron%20polished%20production&f=false

Take care,
Steve


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