Folks -

Have a friend who is a bicycle rider who has a pretty good interest in railroads and railroad items, but is certainly not a railfan. On a ride earlier this week he came upon a two light signal sitting atop of a crossing buck post, with a red lens above a yellow lens. I enquired of a fellow member of our museum and he sent me the attached photo of Nickel Plate Road Alco 566 and a Geep somewhere in the snow, but he was not sure of the location. Note the signals on the posts are marked "X". This is the type of signal that my bike riding friend found. My guess is that the two light signal was saved but not the post it sat on and the current owner just installed it on the crossing buck post. My question is, does anyone know where these signals might have been on the NKP? Since it appears that this might be in a yard, perhaps it is not on the Nickel Plate itself, but some other railroad. Also, what did the "X" signify? The signal might be worth trying to save for a railroad museum, if some information can be found about it.

Thanks for any help that can be offered on this new mystery!

Les

They look like they may control some kind of crossing, either a Railroad/Railroad or possibly Railroad/Highway. The normal indications would probably be 'Proceed' or 'Proceed Restricted' on the superior side and 'Stop' on the subordinate side. When the superior side is changed to 'Stop' the subordinate side would go to 'Proceed' or 'Proceed Restricted'. If they are for a highway crossing of some sort the highway is usually considered the superior side and is probably controlled by a conventional traffic light and the railroad signal is to indicate that the train may proceed as all traffic lights are set to red.

The signal in the photo looks a heck of a lot like early roadway traffic signals. Specifically the finial shown in the photo.

Any way you can share a photo of what your friend saw?

Chis,
If they are tied to a highway signal and there is no other railroad signal system there, that is probably exactly what they are.

cjvrr -

I can tell you that in the photo my friend took, the signal has a finial exactly like the one on the left side of the NKP photo. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get his photo transferred over to my system so I can send it here to RyPN. Will keep trying.

Les

Mike -

Without knowing where the NKP photo was taken, we can't tell for sure if the crossing is of another railroad, a highway, some type of combination, or perhaps something else entirely. Your theory sounds plausible to me, but without knowing the actual set up, I don't think we can know for sure.

Les

Looks very much like the old version of a rail/highway crossing signal used on yard/industrial tracks in conjunction with a manual P/B for the crew to set the traffic light to stop for highway traffic. 'X' is used to indicate grade crossings to trains and is an alternative to 'W' on whistle posts. There are plenty of modern versions of this type of signal in service all over the place. Cheaper and less malfunction-prone than track-circuit automatic protection where time isn't a pressing issue, although some use an island track circuit for approach lighting and hold/clearing functions. Usual RR-side colors are yellow and red, red equating a Stop Signal and yellow a Restricting Signal. Whether they hold the force of a fixed signal or are just an indicator of crossing status depends on the operating rules in effect. Interesting to see an older application of it.

Les
Since you said your friend was on a bike ride I'm wondering if he was on former railbed. If we can get a precise map location we can probably figure this out. The signal on the right in the NKP picture looks as though its positioned at a crossing. The snow and the angle make it hard to tell for the one on the left but it looks as though it may be for another track crossing the same road.

A few years ago I was involved in a crossing and intersection redesign which involved three different roads (a 'T' intersection on each side of the crossing in the main road, a shopping center driveway and a single track. In the end we treated the highway as a single intersection and rather than install a conventional set of crossing signals right in the middle we placed crossbucks and an electric bell and tied the approach circuit to the traffic signals. Facing the track are a pair of signals set up exactly as Train Detainer explained. The normal indication is 'Stop'. When a train activates the circuit all traffic lights go to 'Stop' (except for a Right Turn Signal), the bell starts ringing and the train gets a 'Proceed Restricted". If the train does not get the 'Proceed Restricted' the crew is to stop and either wait for the signal or manually flag the crossing.

Possibly unrelated question - I recall that Indiana once used a very non-standard crossing signal which used a steady green light and a sign which said to stop if the light was out. Modern crossing signal installations generally have both a visible "Power On" indicator (usually on the control box) and an indicator facing the trains which give the crew a visual indication that the signal is activated. Did the green light signals have any form of status indicator visible to the train crew?

Mike - My friend uses both public roads and rail to trail conversions on his various rides. In this case, he found the signal/crossing buck amongst a private collection of mostly non-railroad artifacts in someone's yard.

As for the steady green light, this was exclusively used by the Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville Railroad, better known as the Monon. The Monon was a heavy user of semaphore block signals and in an effort to economize, the railroad increased the lengths of their blocks thus removing a number of semaphores. The local Indiana populace quickly complained, stating that the railroad would have to put in highway flashers in many locations because they had been using nearby semaphores to determine if a train was in the vicinity and if it was safe to cross the tracks. The Monon realized that flashers, along with their maintenance, was going to be an expensive proposition and someone in the lines engineering department came up with the steady green light alternative, which made the locals happy. It worked very well, UNLESS you were from some location that wasn't familiar with the concept. A fatal accident to some young girls who crossed over a Monon track with an unlit green light, led to the eventual abandonment of the idea. BTW, we would like to get a genuine Monon green light signal for installation at Hoosier Valley. If anyone has one, let us know!

Les

I contacted a retired colleague who in his youth had worked in Maintenance of Way for the Nickel Plate. He didn’t recognize the signals but he instantly recognized the location when he saw the Sinclair bulk oil storage facility in the background. This is in his hometown of Frankfort, Indiana. The road in the foreground is Rossville Avenue, just south of the intersection with West Morrison Street. The NKP locomotives are on the interchange track to the Monon. Since the crossing, which passed through the middle of the intersection of Rossville & Morrison, was the Monon’s, not the NKP’s, it would make sense that crossing warning system was configured the way Mike Allen has described above.

At the risk of hijacking this thread, I’ll note that, according to the aerial photos on Google Maps, yet another abandoned turntable is located a block away at the former NKP roundhouse.

/s/ Larry
Lawrence G. Lovejoy, P.E.

Larry -

Thanks for the info that the location is Frankfort, Indiana. Appreciate that very much.

We've talked about the Frankfort turntable on RyPN before. Not abandoned, but purchased by a gentleman with the Indiana Transportation Museum but left in place in case plans to restore the NKP roundhouse work out. If that doesn't happen, then the turntable will be removed, but certainly not scrapped.

Les

The photo is at Michigan City, IN per Tom Figura of the NKPHTS. The signals control rail traffic across US Rte 12. 1950 emp. tt. lists city law prohibited horns or whistles being used except for train movements, and there was a 5 mph speed limit within city limits.

The signals were preceded by a track circuit that activated the highway crossing protection. When a train entered the circuit, the signal wold change from red to some proceed aspect once the crossing protection was deployed.

NKP1155 -

Thanks for this info. Unfortunately, we now have two different opinions as to where this photo (and the signals) was located; Frankfort and Michigan City. Will do some checking myself and hope others may be doing the same.

Les

An aerial pic in my email from the NKP group pretty much calls it Michigan City as the 5 tanks in the pic matches the aerial pic. The signals are a highway protection signal for the railroad, indicating the crossing protection is operating and in place.

looking at a topographical map for the supposed monon crossing shows a blob unidentified on the map which was leading me as the possibility it was frankfort.

Aside from all this I would love to see pics of these railroads in close proximity with all these crossings and interchanges and how they dealt with signalling in Frankfort.