Passenger car in Carthage, IN

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:33 pm

Found several photos of the D&M cars on the RR Michigan website's passenger car page: http://www.railroadmichigan.com/passenger.html

D&M #2:

At SRI, Owosso, MI, June 12th, 2004: http://www.railroadmichigan.com/detroitmac2.jpg (Eddie Gross collection) (click once to enlarge)

At SRI, Owosso, MI, September 3rd, 2005: http://www.railroadmichigan.com/detroitmac2a.jpg (Eddie Gross collection) (click once to enlarge)

D&M #3:

East Tawas, MI, July 1980: http://www.railroadmichigan.com/dmpass3s1.jpg (Eddie Gross collection) (click once to enlarge)

East Tawas, MI, July 1980: http://www.railroadmichigan.com/dmpass3s2.jpg (Eddie Gross collection) (click once to enlarge)

D&M #4:

East Tawas, MI, July 1980: http://www.railroadmichigan.com/dmpass4s1.jpg (Eddie Gross collection) (click once to enlarge)

D&M #5:

East Tawas, MI, July 1980: http://www.railroadmichigan.com/dmpass5s1.jpg (Eddie Gross collection) (click once to enlarge)

jmlaboda · Updated 8/9/17 with 8,402 new links

Thanks for the links... am due to go through that site to see about additional pix...

PaulWWoodring · **Posted:** Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:04 pm

Midwest Railway Historical Foundation (the former equipment owning arm of Midwest Chapter, NRHS) owned three Erie Ten-Hundreds into the first decade of the Cuyahoga Valley Line, and operated them as a regular part of the train pulled by ex-GTW Mike 4070. I know for sure that the 1022 at Jefferson was one of them, I want to say that the 1016 was another, but I'm not absolutely sure. They were not consecutively numbered, but were all in the teens and low twenties (I think they were 1016, 1020, and 1022). They were pretty much the backbone of the CVL fleet in the first few years, the AC was fairly reliable in the Summer. They were never modernized to HEP or motorized electrical power, AFAIK, always using axle generators and Spicer drives. There were issues with being able to keep up with electricity demand, given the low speed operated at. There started being corrosion issues with them in the late '70's (they still had horse hair insulation) as well as window sealing and fogging problems, and sometime (I think) in the late '80's is when they were sold off in favor of a fleet of ex-PRR P70 coaches, which later went to Texas.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:47 pm

Thanks, Paul, for the info on the 3 MRHF/Cuyahoga cars!

PaulWWoodring wrote:

I know for sure that the 1022 at Jefferson was one of them, I want to say that the 1016 was another, but I'm not absolutely sure. They were not consecutively numbered, but were all in the teens and low twenties (I think they were 1016, 1020, and 1022).

The #1016 was indeed one of these three cars, as "Cuyahoga Valley Line" is still barely legible in Alan's photo of the car in Carthage.

So with the #1016 in Carthage and the #1022 in Jefferson, does anyone know where the #1020 went?

Also, I'm wondering if the Detroit & Mackinac acquired their 2 cars from Steamtown, as pictures show that the 2 cars that were sold to NYS&W had "SF" lettering, as did the D&M cars.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:56 pm

Regarding the #1022, here's a current thread discussing the end of passenger operations on the Ashtabula, Carson & Jefferson: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36917

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:43 am

R Paul Carey wrote:

If this question relates to the green heavyweight coach that appears among the images at the CK&S web site, I have your answer.

This car is a former NYC suburban MU coach, which operated on an under-running third rail and is recognizable by the "barrel door" that, when operated mid-train, covered the controls at (the car's) right-hand side.

These coaches were in the 42-4300 series, the last of which were retired about 1970.

Here's a photo on Flickr of the ex-PC/nee-NYC MU suburban cab-coach: https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5349/10045803503_0142ffcf11_o.jpg (Jon A. Clark photo) (click once to enlarge)

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:39 pm

Rainier Rails wrote:

Besides the #1016 in Carthage and the #1022 in Jefferson, are there any other surviving cars from this group? Does #1070 at Steamtown count, or is it from a different group of coaches?

How many cars were there in this group originally, and were all of them modernized?

diningcartim wrote:

To my knowledge there are no Erie modernized heavyweights at Steamtown. There were two cars that belonged to the Steamtown Foundation. Both were sold to the NYS&W. One of them had some kind of catastrophic failure (cracked truck frames?) and was sold to a restaurant outside of Oneonta, NY. The other was allowed to deteriorate was was sitting derelict in Utica, NY. It was for sale along with the resto fthe NYS&W passenger car fleet but no takers. I heard it had been cut up a few months ago but I don't know if that is true.

Rainier Rails wrote:

Did some looking on Jerry LaBoda's website and found some photos and info for NYS&W #504, which is listed as having come from the D&H, so one can draw the conclusion that Steamtown (Bellows Falls) acquired their two Erie #10xx-series coaches from D&H. NYS&W #504 must have been the one to suffer the cracked truck frame, as it was sold to Falcos Restaurant in Cooperstown Junction, NY.

Listed on Jerry's Steamtown page is Erie #1070, which like the NYS&W #504, has "SF" by the vestibule for Steamtown Foundation, so this would have been one of the two Erie #10xx-series coaches that were acquired by NYS&W, but I don't know the identity of the second, not which one became the #504.

jmlaboda wrote:

ERIE, later EL, 1000 - 1018, 1020 and 1021 were 52-seat coaches with large lounge bathrooms for both men and women, modernized 1947. They were rebuilt from 2267, 2268, 2258, 2271, 2260, 2261, 2259, 2265, 2257, 2262, 2264, 2266, 2269, 2270, 2263, 2274, 2273, 2272, 2275, 1061 and 1062.

1022 - 1024 were 48-seat coaches with large lounge bathrooms for both men and women, modernized 1952, ex-1053 - 1055.

1070 - 1076 were 54-seat coaches with small men's and women's bathrooms and a 10-seat smoking room, modernized 1952, ex-2050 - 2056.

PaulWWoodring wrote:

Midwest Railway Historical Foundation (the former equipment owning arm of Midwest Chapter, NRHS) owned three Erie Ten-Hundreds into the first decade of the Cuyahoga Valley Line, and operated them as a regular part of the train pulled by ex-GTW Mike 4070. I know for sure that the 1022 at Jefferson was one of them, I want to say that the 1016 was another, but I'm not absolutely sure. They were not consecutively numbered, but were all in the teens and low twenties (I think they were 1016, 1020, and 1022). They were pretty much the backbone of the CVL fleet in the first few years, the AC was fairly reliable in the Summer. They were never modernized to HEP or motorized electrical power, AFAIK, always using axle generators and Spicer drives. There were issues with being able to keep up with electricity demand, given the low speed operated at. There started being corrosion issues with them in the late '70's (they still had horse hair insulation) as well as window sealing and fogging problems, and sometime (I think) in the late '80's is when they were sold off in favor of a fleet of ex-PRR P70 coaches, which later went to Texas.

Rainier Rails wrote:

So with the #1016 in Carthage and the #1022 in Jefferson, does anyone know where the #1020 went?

Also, I'm wondering if the Detroit & Mackinac acquired their 2 cars from Steamtown, as pictures show that the 2 cars that were sold to NYS&W had "SF" lettering, as did the D&M cars.

Well, after discussing with Jerry the 2 cars which were owned by the Steamtown Foundation and then NYS&W, here's what the ownership history looks like:

Erie #2050 rebuilt in 1952 to Erie #1070 to EL #1070 sold (when??) to Midwest Chapter-MRHF #1070 sold (circa 1975) to Detroit & Mackinac #3 sold (circa 1987) to SF #1070 sold (1989) to NYS&W.

Erie #2056 rebuilt in 1952 to Erie #1076 to EL #1076 sold (when??) to Midwest Chapter-MRHF #1076 sold (circa 1975) to Detroit & Mackinac #4 sold (circa 1987) to SF #1076 sold (1989) to NYS&W.

I still don't know which car was renumbered as NYS&W #504 (the car now in Cooperstown Junction) and which car was eventually stored in Utica (I also don't know what number this car received when purchased from Steamtown). Can anyone clarify?

Also, with the MRHF owning the #1016, #1020, #1022, #1070, and #1076, were all 5 used in service on the Cuyahoga Valley Line, or were the latter 2 cars sold to D&M without being used? Also, when did MRHF acquire these 5 cars from EL? Was it around the same time the 5 cars were sold to the D&H in 1967? Did the MRHF acquire any other cars from EL that have not been mentioned yet?

Between the D&H and MRHF cars, that's 10 of the 35 modernized Erie coaches I have accounted for:

#1001 to D&H 1967. Current status unknown.

#1010 to D&H 1967. Current status unknown.

#1012 to D&H 1967. Current status unknown.

#1014 to D&H 1967. Current status unknown.

#1016 to MRHF to Carthage, Knightstown & Shirley, stored in Carthage, IN.

#1020 to MRHF. Current status unknown.

#1021 to D&H 1967. Current status unknown.

#1022 to MRHF to Akron, Canton & Youngstown, stored in Jefferson, OH.

#1070 to MRHF to D&M #3 to Steamtown to NYS&W.

#1076 to MRHF to D&M #4 to Steamtown to NYS&W.

Does anybody have information regarding the retirement dates/dispositions of the cars acquired by D&H? Did these 5 cars see use on the early Amtrak version of the Adirondack that used D&H equipment? Also, besides the 5 cars listed above, were there any additional cars that were leased or sold to D&H?

Finally, besides the #1016 in Carthage, the #1022 in Jefferson, and the #504 in Cooperstown Junction, are there any other surviving examples of these modernized Erie coaches? Tim had mentioned another car privately owned in Pennsylvania which is in good condition--does anybody know the number of this car? Any others?

_________________
Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

diningcartim · **Joined:** Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:34 pm **Posts:** 197

There are two Erie modernized heavyweights I am familiar with in NE Pa. One was part of the station complex in Wilkes Barre. I believe part of one end that attached it to the building had been cut off. The last time I saw it, it was still in place. No idea if it is still there or if it had been cut up (the Budd dining car was cut up there about 2 years ago).

The second car is in a remote location off live rail, on a decent length of track with a caboose (supposedly MEC) and a 50 ft. boxcar). It is in remarkably good condition. The owner had grand plans for it but he is getting on in years but not ready to let it go. There is no number on the car and the owner no longer remembers what it was. He bought it off the dead line of the EL in Port Jervis circa 1972.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:56 pm

Thanks, Tim, for the additional info!

I went back and found the thread concerning the cars at the Wilkes-Barre station: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31696. The Budd car was ACL 57 seat club lounge blunt end observation #253 (Lot #96810, 1941), later SCL #5832/Amtrak #3332, retired in July 1981 and sold.

Also in that thread, Chemungvalleyrail posted:

Chemungvalleyrail wrote:

Not sure which car number the Utica car was, it went to Steamtown, then NYS&W. It was stenciled "LAL 101" prior to its demise. The NYS&W got two of the cars in the late 80's at the Steamtown auction. 1070 was one of the two and it now resides in Cooperstown junction as a restuarant. 1022 is the car on the AC&J and is the best and most complete one that I know of. Not sure where the other cars that the Midwest Chapter had are right now. I'll see if I can find a picture to post of the Utica car.

So that means that the #1076 was the car stored in Utica (NYS&W number still unknown), and the #504 is the #1070.

Sources:

1. "Streamliner Cars Volume Two: The Budd Company" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

2. Mike Palmieri's Amtrak rosters

3. "Amtrak by the Numbers" by David C. Warner and Elbert Simon (White River Productions, 2011)

_________________
Have a Happy Thanksgiving!

Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

PaulWWoodring · **Posted:** Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:45 pm

I only ever saw three ten-hundreds on the CVL. If Midwest ever had the 1070 and 1076 they left early - before 1975.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:34 am

Rainier Rails wrote:

Well, after discussing with Jerry the 2 cars which were owned by the Steamtown Foundation and then NYS&W, here's what the ownership history looks like:

Erie #2050 rebuilt in 1952 to Erie #1070 to EL #1070 sold (when??) to Midwest Chapter-MRHF #1070 sold (circa 1975) to Detroit & Mackinac #3 sold (circa 1987) to SF #1070 sold (1989) to NYS&W #504, sold (when??) to restaurant (Cooperstown Junction, NY).

Erie #2056 rebuilt in 1952 to Erie #1076 to EL #1076 sold (when??) to Midwest Chapter-MRHF #1076 sold (circa 1975) to Detroit & Mackinac #4 sold (circa 1987) to SF #1076 sold (1989) to NYS&W (number unknown), stored at Utica (when??), offered for sale as LA&L #101, reported as scrapped.

Also, with the MRHF owning the #1016, #1020, #1022, #1070, and #1076, were all 5 used in service on the Cuyahoga Valley Line, or were the latter 2 cars sold to D&M without being used?

PaulWWoodring wrote:

I only ever saw three ten-hundreds on the CVL. If Midwest ever had the 1070 and 1076 they left early - before 1975.

W. David Randall's "Railway Passenger Car Annual, Volume 3" (1976) lists the Midwest RHF as owning #1016, #1020, #1022, #1070, and #1076. The sale of the #1070 and #1076 did indeed take place circa 1975*, as these 2 photos taken by Jim Parker in April of that year in Tawas City confirm:

#1070 as D&M #3: http://rr-fallenflags.org/dm/dm-co003jpa.jpg

#1076 as D&M #4: http://rr-fallenflags.org/dm/dm-co0004jpa.jpg

*Information regarding the sale of #1070 and #1076 to D&M had obviously not reached Randall when Volume 3 went to the presses, Volume 4 from 1978 does show the D&M as owning these 2 cars by that time.

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Have a Merry Christmas!

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Sat May 02, 2015 12:34 am

On Tuesday, November 25th, 2014, 7th Post on This Page, Rainier Rails wrote:

Between the D&H and MRHF cars, that's 10 of the 35 modernized Erie coaches I have accounted for:

#1001 to D&H 1967. Current status unknown.

#1010 to D&H 1967. Current status unknown.

#1012 to D&H 1967. Current status unknown.

#1014 to D&H 1967. Current status unknown.

#1021 to D&H 1967. Current status unknown.

Does anybody have information regarding the retirement dates/dispositions of the cars acquired by D&H? Did these 5 cars see use on the early Amtrak version of the Adirondack that used D&H equipment?

Answered my own question:

Issue #52 of TRP (January/February/March 2002) includes an article titled "Delaware & Hudson Classics", and on the front cover is a photo of the Adirondack led by PA1's #16 and #17, taken by George Barker in January 1976 at Mechanicville. The first car is one of the ex-Erie modernized chairs, followed by 2 additional cars in D&H colors, both lightweights: an ex-D&RGW buffet lounge and a chair, with the last car being another chair in Amtrak Phase I.

Also on page #35 is a B&W shot of the Adirondack taken by Joseph R. Quinn on March 29th, 1976 at Mechanicville, this time led by PA1's #18 and #17. Again, the first car in the consist is an ex-Erie chair, followed by 3 lightweights: an ex-D&RGW buffet lounge, and 2 chairs, the first of which is in Amtrak Phase I.

Chemungvalleyrail · **Joined:** Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:12 am **Posts:** 90

Several D&H passengers cars were burned in a fire in Grand Central Terminal in the mid 1980's. I know at least one former Lackawanna Phoebe Snow coach was lost to this, not sure if the Erie cars were there at the time or not.

Howard P. · **Posted:** Mon May 04, 2015 12:05 am

No Erie 1000s were in the GCT fire.

Howard P.

lvrr325 · **Joined:** Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:13 pm **Posts:** 25

I took a look at this car on July 21st. It's more or less intact, the same as in the picture earlier in the thread (the glass is all intact in the car and it's locked up), and being in the center of town the neighbors all keep an eye on things. While the railroad is not running, someone is mowing some of the grass there and maintaining things.

I would imagine they stopped using it because it's a sealed window car and they don't run fast enough for the axle-driven generator to have run properly. Plus the steps have fallen off from it, it has some rot issues. But rot didn't stop them from using other cars, the ex-NYC MU car has one entire window sash rusted away about 3 inches below the bottom of the glass.

I would imagine you could buy this one pretty reasonable if you wanted to truck it 15 miles to Rushville to load on a flatcar, even if the line does get up and running again it would be a lot easier for them to bring in an old Long Island or other self-contained coach than to repair and modify this one to get the A/C running.