Tim, Les, and the forum--

Besides the #1016 in Carthage and the #1022 in Jefferson, are there any other surviving cars from this group? Does #1070 at Steamtown count, or is it from a different group of coaches?

Just trying to clarify some history here: these coaches were originally built by Standard Steel in 1925 and modernized in 1947, with 52 seats. What was the seating capacity before modernization?

How many cars were there in this group originally, and were all of them modernized?

The Bridge Line Historical Society lists 5 cars as being sold by EL to D&H in 1967: #1001, #1010, #1012, #1014 & #1021. Were there any additional cars either sold or leased to D&H?

Source:

1. BLHS D&H passenger car roster: http://www.bridge-line.org/blhs/dhpassenger.html

To my knowledge there are no Erie modernized heavyweights at Steamtown. There were two cars that belonged to the Steamtown Foundation. Both were sold to the NYS&W. One of them had some kind of catastrophic failure (cracked truck frames?) and was sold to a restaurant outside of Oneonta, NY. The other was allowed to deteriorate was was sitting derelict in Utica, NY. It was for sale along with the resto fthe NYS&W passenger car fleet but no takers. I heard it had been cut up a few months ago but I don't know if that is true.

Tim--

Did some looking on Jerry LaBoda's website and found some photos and info for NYS&W #504, which is listed as having come from the D&H, so one can draw the conclusion that Steamtown (Bellows Falls) acquired their two Erie #10xx-series coaches from D&H. NYS&W #504 must have been the one to suffer the cracked truck frame, as it was sold to Falcos Restaurant in Cooperstown Junction, NY.

Listed on Jerry's Steamtown page is Erie #1070, which like the NYS&W #504, has "SF" by the vestibule for Steamtown Foundation, so this would have been one of the two Erie #10xx-series coaches that were acquired by NYS&W, but I don't know the identity of the second, not which one became the #504.

Photos:

1. NYS&W #504 in service (in Lackawanna colors)--note that next to the vestibule on the left is "SF" for Steamtown Foundation: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1899573 (Matthew Gibbons photo)

2. NYS&W #504 as part of the restaurant: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1556173 (Paul Koprowski photo)

3. EL #1070 (in Lackawanna colors) with the "SF" for Steamtown Foundation next to the left vestibule: http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?february06/02-11-06/Steamtown1070TomNemethScanColl.jpg (Tom Nemeth photo)

Here is an image of the other NYS&W car in Utica. It was last listed for sale for $8300.



I know of one other Erie modernized coach located off rails in Pennsylvania, in very good condition but quite a distance from live rail. Not being used but the owner is not interested in selling it either.

"How many cars were there in this group originally, and were all of them modernized?"

The following were modernized:

ERIE, later EL, 1000 - 1018, 1020 and 1021 were 52-seat coaches with large lounge bathrooms for both men and women, modernized 1947. They were rebuilt from 2267, 2268, 2258, 2271, 2260, 2261, 2259, 2265, 2257, 2262, 2264, 2266, 2269, 2270, 2263, 2274, 2273, 2272, 2275, 1061 and 1062.

1019 was 48-seat coaches with large lounge bathrooms for both men and women, modernized 1952, ex-1050, nee-2224

1022 - 1024 were 48-seat coaches with large lounge bathrooms for both men and women, modernized 1952, ex-1053 - 1055.

1070 - 1076 were 54-seat coaches with small men's and women's bathrooms and a 10-seat smoking room, modernized 1952, ex-2050 - 2056.

1080 was a 62-seat coach with large women's bathroom and small men's bathroom, modernized 1952. Previous number unknown (not listed in diagram book).

1085 was a 70-seat coach with small bathrooms, modernized 1952, ex-2276.

1086 was a 70-seat coach with small bathrooms, modernized 1952, ex-2284.

"The Bridge Line Historical Society lists 5 cars as being sold by EL to D&H in 1967: #1001, #1010, #1012, #1014 & #1021. Were there any additional cars either sold or leased to D&H?"

I do have copies of the diagrams. If interested contact me off forum.

Only 1001 and 1021 are pictured on the web in blue, yellow and gray while 1021 is shown in EL maroon and gray with D&H lettering. Did the other two (1010 and 1014) ever actually carry D&H lettering?

Thank you very much for the info, Jerry!

Here is the car in Carthage.

Alan Maples

Am I the only one thinking that this might be a good future acquisition for the EL Dining Car guys and their "train"?

Whatever this car would cost to acquire and refurbish and move.... versus what the closer (shell of a) car in Utica would cost to refurb..... depends on whether you want authenticity, or to sacrifice a good(?) interior for such things as non-authentic handicapped accessibility......

Alan -

Thanks for the neat photo! Question; were these modernized cars repainted in Pullman Green paint when on the Erie, or did they have the two-tone green paint scheme separated by the yellow stripe? Anyone have any color photos?

Les

Thanks for the picture of the #1016, Alan!

Those modernized in '47 appear to have been painted in solid green and only later repainted to the two-tone green and yellow scheme while the later ('52) rebuilds appear to have been painted in the two-tone green...

http://rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/erie-co1000bbb.jpg
http://www.billspennsyphotos.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=73694404
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/erie1002.jpg
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=557124
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/erie1024.jpg

Finding color photos of these cars have not been easy but a few of the other modernized cars can be found on the web in color...

Mod. HW buffet - parlor
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tubbs/ErieLackawanna/Passenger56.jpg
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tubbs/ErieLackawanna/Passenger57.jpg

Mod. HW diner - lounge
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tubbs/ErieLackawanna/Passenger51.jpg
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tubbs/ErieLackawanna/Passenger52.jpg

It really was interesting to go through the Erie diagrams last night, the first time in quite a while that I have done so. Erie had a wide variety of interiors applied to various cars with some not so easily identified by looking at the outside of the car. I yet may have to take a closer look to see what might be possible for my freelanced lines... I can always use more ideas on what might be possible based on prototypical practices.

Alan, thanks so very much for the shot of the Carthage car... let's hope it yet can find a good home... and likewise for the Susie-Q car!!!

Found a picture on RR Picture Archives of 2 of these ERIE modernized coaches in Saginaw, MI, in July 1987; the one car having clearly come from Steamtown (Bellows Falls), so one can assume the 2nd car is also former Steamtown.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3272275 (Jack Smith photo)

Not a great view:

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Carthage,+IN+46115,+USA/@39.7394443,-85.5679407,86m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x886ad788a9c80847:0x45ea358529895cd1?hl=en

From the Google pic, it appears most of the glass is gone.

Steve Hunter

Never a Steamtown car what you have here is Detroit & Mackinack #4. after it was retired by the D&M. When the cars were taken out of service and sold is not clear and I have tried for several years to find out more about them, with little success...

Here itwo more links to D&M #4...

http://rr-fallenflags.org/dm/dm-co0004jpa.jpg
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2311113

And here are two shots of D&M #3...

http://rr-fallenflags.org/dm/dm-co003jpa.jpg
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2422612

The line had three other passenger cars that were used, for what I don't know but it may have been excursions...

D&M 5 (ex-IC 3344, ex-MP 567, nee-873), a former Illinois Central coach - grill that was acquired from the Missouri Pacific...

http://rr-fallenflags.org/dm/dm-co0004jpa.jpg
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3272275
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2311113

D&M #6 (ex-MILW 182 UNION GROVE), a former Milwaukee Road diner - bar lounge which I have never seen a picture of, and D&M 2, their business car which is now own ed by the R.J. Corman...
http://railroadmichigan.com/detroitmac2.jpg
http://rr-fallenflags.org/dm/dm-bv2ajw.jpg
http://rrpicturearchives.net/rspicture.aspx?id=294773
http://passcarphotos.info/Indices/BC6.htm#RJCC

The line also employed several former Army troop sleeper cars that were rebuilt to cabooses and another car that, in the 70s, was rebuilt to an HEP generator for D&M #2, #5 and I assume #6. D&M #5 is now in use at the Tennessee Valley RR Museum...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lrmyers/9028422099
http://rrpicturearchives.net/rspicture.aspx?id=425677

Don't know off hand what happened to the MILW car.

Well, I found MILW 182 UNION GROVE (too many links... too little memory)...

She's in private ownership...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/33672589@N08/sets/72157625062840425
https://www.flickr.com/photos/trackwalker/11214572315
https://www.flickr.com/photos/trackwalker/11259727124