Not necessarily a gondola, but a flat car modified with sides: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=3632598

Boarding and debarking is done from an adjacent passenger car or caboose.

Monticello recently (2012) retrofitted the car with cushioned buffers and handrails to allow crossing between cars while underway (previously, removable gangways were used).

Someone from Monticello can chime in on what type of buffer was used.



Tri-level? Isn't this bad enough?

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=488947

While not a gondola, the Mount Rainier Scenic RR has been operating an open car since the railroad began operation.

The cars has gradually evolved.

Open Car

Construction - Cut the roof off a passenger car at the window rails. As Lee mentioned, the car has a concrete floor. I think it was built with a concrete floor originally (it's an ex SP harriman) but the floor was re-done when the car was converted. It has a thicker than normal floor, in an effort to improve ride quality by making up for some of the weight lost when the roof was removed.

Seating Version 1 - The original seating design was simple. Put seats parallel to the car sides, with a walkway down the center. It seemed logical enough, folks could face out, like they do in a Superliner lounge car.

There are two problems with the seating. 1) You have to leave spaces between the benches so folks can get in and out. Add in the fact the benches run lengthwise, and you have used the most possible space while also creating the least possible seating. 2) The car sides provide a great place to stand and enjoy the view. Of course that means you're now blocking the view of seated passengers when then enjoy, due to their seated position, a view of your butt.

Seating Version 2 - Seating like you'd have in a regular coach. Seats face forward and back and bolt to the sides of the car. Aisle down the center of the car. High capacity and no more blocked views.

Seating Version 2.1 - Create an open space at the end of the cars for standees. People are constantly coming out to have a look around and spend a few minutes in the car. Some don't want to sit, or they can't find a seat. Have an area without seats. This helps with the flow of people and by having to stand, there is more turnover than you get with the seat, allowing more folks to enjoy the car. This is small, but important, design element that works really well.

This car is extremely popular. On hot sunny days of course, but no matter what the weather, if it's in the train, there will be people riding out there.

Clopen Car

Named by the late Jack Anderson, the "Clopen Car" is not something from the German Railways (We occasionally get asked about that, presumably they think it's "Klopen") Instead, it's the "Closed-Open Car" Yes, that's an oxymoron.

In the tradition of the old "Hay Rack" cars, it's an open car with a roof. That comes in handy here in the Pacific North-WET. We run oil burners, so cinders aren't a problem, but rain is, and even on misty days, you can get wet when the steam shakes the trees.

So the covered version is quite popular, especially on cool or cloudy days.

One of the worst freight car conversions I've seen was on a tourist railroad that shall remain nameless. I think they're no longer in service.

They were made from stock cars. They actually did a lot of work on them, I am pretty sure they even cut the ends and lowered the roof to make them shorter so they'd ride better.

One thing that they didn't do was put some sheet metal over the stock car siding on the outside of the car. These were not the rustic looking wood stock cars that some of the narrow gauge lines used. They were modern steel stock cars. The inside looked pretty good after the rebuild. Not fancy, but nice, clean and serviceable. But the outside was still easily recognizable.

It is NOT a good thing when you train pulls into the station and several passengers say "Hey! Those are CATTLE CARS!" Not a good first impression....

WiKi- Walkover seat;

"A type of railroad passenger car seat, having reversible seat backs that can be moved across the seat to face either direction of travel".

On the Niles Canyon Railway we have three flatcars converted for use as open cars. We used park benches for seating and built roofs over two of the cars. All of our open cars and cabooses are operating under a FRA waiver since they are over 50 years old and earn revenue. Attached are a couple photos of the diaphragm mechanisms I built so the cars can safely allow passengers to walk from car to car.

Johnathon Kruger
Road Foreman of Engines
Niles Canyon Railway

Among other railroads using flatcars modified for passenger use include the New Hope Valley RR at Bonsal, NC, which has two or three ex-DOD heavy-duty flatcars so modified and Cass Scenic in West Virginia.

That bi-level auto rack, at the former Gettysburg Railway, is for sale, last I knew. When I was working there some 12 or 13 years ago, we rebuilt the car's trucks with new snubbers, which improved the ride greatly.

The WK&S gons -- there are two though only one is in service -- have served well ever since 1964, with minimal expense and upkeep required.

I recall looking at the converted gondolas used by the Sacramento Southern operation of the California State RR Museum. If I recall correctly, these were first converted by the Sierra Ry back in the 1970s. And then probably upgraded over the years.

Similar to the PLA, Niles Canyon cars there is a canvas roof structure made out of tubular material. The canvas covering was carrying a tag from the supplier (probably a commercial tent maker) that noted the material was water and fire proofed.

One of the posters commented about adding a railing above the car side. To come up with a height for the railing, I would look at the requirements of the uniform building code for porch and balcony railings to help determine the height.

Thank you everyone for the great replies so far. Lot's of good information so far. We only have till April 18th to have it done. Outside no less in this lovely winter we have been having.
Please no mention of auto racks. Not even joking.One of the guy's in the shop has a friend that is convinced beyond reason.......The story floating around the internet....that those cars are going to be used to haul all the people to F.E.M.A. camps! Our shop is next to a yard where they stage auto racks and he spent 5 minutes telling us all about. The strange thing is look it up, It's out there on the web.
Hey wait a minute, If we used an auto rack just think of all the indirect advertising we would get being posted on all of those sites!
Thanks again, please keep pictures and ideas coming. We were planing on coming in from the sides(per people who don't have to do the work). Not now. Building the buffers shown would probably be easier than building side steps.

Okay, I dug out my copy of the MRyM newsletter that mentions the retrofit.

They copied/modified the design of a Miner patented buffer assembly found on one of the passenger cars in the museum's collection. Most of the parts were either made in the shop, or ordered as plasma cut shapes and then welded on site.

MRyM's CMO can explain this in more detail if he desires. Kent, are you out there?

Holy Smokes! Well far be it from me to say it can't be done, but you guys will be Rock Stars if you do it.

Speaking of rock stars, you're gonna want K.I.S.S. to the max. I would absolutely plan to have it done by March 28 so you have recovery time when things inevitably get more complicated.

On that, I'm on the fence about seating. Walkover seats are not going to happen unless you already own them to bolt in. The outward facing bench seats a-la Wanamaker and Southern Michigan are easiest to build "on the car", because you build them integral to the floor: the A-frames for the seatbacks come up out of the floor joists. They could also be built "off the car" by a second crew, but they'd be too heavy to man-carry onboard, you'd need to forklift-as-crane them aboard. Building simple 2-wide seats are certainly easy to knock out in a hurry, my family fabbed 11 of them in a weekend, upholstery and all. But then you've got the "half facing the wrong way" problem again.

The main thing is, if you're going to use the natural gondola's sides, you need to make sure they are human-safe from injury points, and that the sidewalls are the correct height for safety. The easiest way to adjust sidewall height is to change the floor height by using taller or shorter stringers.

I wouldn't even attempt the "proper buffers" like NCRy/PLA did. You don't have time, unless you can assign a spare crew specifically to that task. Maybe a Cass sort of deal where the walk-through is a "bridge" (with sides) that has one foot on either car.

Here's what CSRM did, now that I look at them, I'm not a fan. They have to leave that good 6-8" gap for slack action, you really don't want your walkway carrying buff forces. At the least, I would close that gap with cloth, rubber, brush heads (let the bristles intertwine) whatever you can get.



Close, but no cigar. Those are for moving materiel. FEMA has pre-staged warehouses all over the country with emergency short-term-use furniture and housewares. After a Federal budget cut, some employees at one location tried to close their funding gap by selling some of the stuff "out the back door". Instead of firing them, FEMA greatly expanded the program. It's called the Interim Knockdown Equipment Administration.

Just from personal experience of riding and trying to photograph from an open car, I'll second the person who said the center outward facing benches are best because I need to sit occasionally. The last time I rode a car like that was on the D&S nearly five years ago. Now, they sell open (with roofs) car seats as assigned, extra-fare seating, and if you intend to try and photograph the regular train from on-board during the climb up the gorge, it's really the only way to go, you just have to make sure you understand which side you need to be on for the best shots most of the way, because when the car is sold out, you're not going to get much of a chance to move around during the trip.

Having been on numerous charters at Cass, I can say that there are distinct advantages/disadvantages to either totally open or open-sided cars. If your railroad operates in a fairly dry area where a major part of the draw is a panoramic view of the route, then a totally open car without seats is clearly the way to go - even with steam. Warning passengers about cinders before the start of the trip would be a necessary part of the crew's safety briefing to the passengers. You really can't sell space on a car like that separately, it just has to be on the train as an added attraction. If the car has a roof and open sides, having large windows that can fold down, or heavy clear-plastic sheeting that rolls down to close the car off in heavy rain is almost a must.

And I agree, I think fully open cars are absolutely lovely and the belle of the ball on a dry day.

Speaking as a person who does publicity and booking, pre-selling space on an open car is "complicated", and complicated is BAD when dealing with customer expectation. You better have a "plan B" that is indoor seating, and then, why not just book that indoor seating.

Speaking of expectation, I think it's interesting that you expect to have a right to stand. Some believe customers should be seated at all times, for safety. Not trying to take a stand here, pun unintended.


Well if all that was on the car, then you could pre-sell those seats. However this also defeats all of the natural appeal of an open car, while retaining all of its natural cheesiness. It becomes a cheesy, homebrew, low-rent coach, perceptibly inferior to the real coach next to it. And the roof/sides/windows are also fairly high-maintenance. Why not just get a coach at that point.

Again, I would strongly encourage anyone to steal as many notes, tricks, etc. as possible from the Verde Canyon Railroad:

http://www.air-and-space.com/20121129%2 ... tt%20l.jpg



These cars have to be ready for anything--torrential monsoons (but that's also why they have coaches and parlor cars), oppressive heat and sunshine, and everything in between.

Another operation using converted flat cars: The B&O Railroad Museum, for Thomas the Tank Engine and other "overflow" days. Former DODX flats.

Big South Fork / K&T operates a variety of cars, all built on flat cars. I know that original post references a gondola, but these are given for reference.
1) Open car: pipe rails, nylon mesh sides, pipe seat frames, treated wood bench.
2) Covered Open Car: Same as above, with a roof framed with pipe, and plywood sheathing, rubber roofing.
3) Open Window and No Window "Passenger Cars": Built with wood bodies, based on Cass Scenic design, modified. Walkover seats installed from old coaches. Two cars have wood frame windows that raise, while two have open sides with roll down plastic for cold weather.

Loading is from raised platforms, with drop down gangplanks from end vestibules.

I think a better title for this this thread would have been "Allowing passengers to ride in freight cars". I always try to keep the following NTSB report in mind when looking for cars for passengers to ride in. http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/recletters/1 ... _30_31.pdf