Anybody feel like digging for buried treasure?

Ron Travis · **Joined:** Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm **Posts:** 1543

It says the locomotive was lost on the line between Hillsport and Manitouwadge. How many rail miles apart those towns? If it happened as recently as the 1950s, there are probably local people who know the details.

joe6167 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:21 pm

About 20 miles

Howard P. · **Posted:** Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:53 pm

Scoff you may at the CNR 2-8-0 in the muskeg, but I submit this little item:

http://www.rense.com/general75/germ2.htm

CNR 2391 may very well be in decent condition. Wonder what the recovery cost would be? Reality show here, eh?

Much more plausible than oh, let's say a PRR 0-6-0 in a quarry.... or a T-1 in a coal mine.

Howard P.

Ron Travis · **Joined:** Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm **Posts:** 1543

It would be an intersting story to investigate. It would not be hard to locate if someone could provide the general site location. Then the question goes to the present status of the site. It could be inaccessible or even built over with roads or similar development. If it is still an undeveloped muskeg site, then I would wonder how deep the locomotive went. Geological records might tell something about the soil makeup.

joe6167 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:58 pm

Re the tank: THAT is impressive!

mikefrommontana · **Posted:** Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:41 am

I have a nagging suspicion that the boiler was full of water when this happened. External oxygen or no (buried or not) that water is going to exact a terrible price in the course of 60 some years.

Still, a worthwhile archeological exercise.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

Richard Glueck · **Posted:** Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:16 pm

Everything in this thread is a guess, but muskeag is oxygen poor, so even if the boiler went under full of air, the oxygen would be gobbled up pretty quickly. I wouldn't let that stop a rescue. Boilers can be replaced.

I would really think a pair of "irretrievable" Canadian steam locomotives of the same wheel arrangement, but from competing companies, would capture the imagination of a series public-consumer science network. If you think of it in terms of acquiring, locating, going after the wreckage, studying it, placing it in a shop and rebuilding for display (if not operation) here's a pair of stories with "a happy ending" for the viewers.

What I see as the problem is getting permits to disturb the resting places of the two locomotives. Lots of paperwork before this even starts.

sbhunterca · **Joined:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:58 am **Posts:** 728

The CN Manitouage Subdivision ran from Hillsport (junction with the Caramat Sub.) to Manitouage, a distance of 21.4 miles. It was abandoned in 1994, per CTC Order #1994-R-236.

Whether or not the roadbed is still passable is a big question, but at least rails wouldn't be in the way. Hauling equipment in to the site over the narrow roadbed would be a challenge, as is the task of establishing safe footing for heavy equipment.

A reasonable first step, if someone were serious about hunting for the locomotive, is to search various archives to determine the mileage where the engine was lost, then take a field trip over the line looking for the most likely locations. Visiting CN Pensioner's Association groups nearby might yield some firsthand accounts, and maybe even somebody who could identify the precise spot.

Metal detectors won't likely penetrate the ground far enough to reach the engine. How far did it sink? Perhaps one of the mining companies working in the area might have done some work with remote sensing aircraft that would show the engine. However, it might be partially obscured by the amount of iron ore in the ground.

By this point, you might have enough evidence to go out and start digging a test hole... which, if the locomotive is found, might warrant a search for sponsors. If it were closer to my area, it would make a pretty interesting quest.

By the way, don't get eaten by bears or wolves out there, LOL. This area would definitely qualify as wilderness.

All in all, a fascinating search, but a monumental task.

Steve Hunter

6-18003 · **Joined:** Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am **Posts:** 728

I really do "get" why you would want to extract this engine. Personally I would love to see the Erie loco that was donated during the Korean war located and repatriated. However, I have to think that there are far better candidates for rescue out there that are not buried in the middle of nowhere or at the bottom of a lake. #2929 at Steamtown comes to mind. We chase pipe dreams while what is easily accessible rots away...

Richard Glueck · **Posted:** Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:26 pm

Bears and wolves don't bother me. It's those big-butt Canadian wilderness mosquitoes!

Les Beckman · **Joined:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm **Posts:** 6488

6-18003 wrote:

I really do "get" why you would want to extract this engine. Personally I would love to see the Erie loco that was donated during the Korean war located and repatriated. However, I have to think that there are far better candidates for rescue out there that are not buried in the middle of nowhere or at the bottom of a lake. #2929 at Steamtown comes to mind. We chase pipe dreams while what is easily accessible rots away...

Is sister 2928 in better shape? Just curious.

Les

6-18003 · **Joined:** Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:31 am **Posts:** 728

I can't find much about 2928 other than she is currently at the Canadian Railway Museum and under cover. I found a few shots from 2009 where she is showing some heavy weathering and what looks like rot in her steam chest. Neither one is good but with outdoor storage 2929 is more endangered.

Unfortunately, 2929 was not included in the SNHS asbestos abatement program making her restoration that much more of an uphill battle. If any engine ever needed a "friends of" campaign, it's 2929.

ellourend · **Joined:** Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:57 pm **Posts:** 1

Here is a picture of CN engine 2391 as she lay sinking into oblivion on the Manitouwadge Subdivision 1955.

joe6167 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:32 pm

Neat photo!

I looked up 2391 in Don McQueen's Canadian National Steam! and although I didn't purchase the volume with 2-8-0 roster, on page 158 of the main book, McQueen has a list of locomotives (Appendix AK) of "Removals Caused by Abandonments, Boiler Explosions and Wreck Damage".

He defines "Abandoned" as:

Quote:

Locomotives written off "abandoned" had been derailed from the right-of-way into muskeg, a river canyon or lake where retrieval was declared impossible or uneconomical,

Under that column he lists four engines 2391, 417, 2727 and 3563.

joe6167 · **Posted:** Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:38 pm

As for CNR 3563, back in 2010 I received an email from Robert Hicks
of Vancouver, BC regarding the wreck with the following information
and photos:

Quote:

Hello Joe:

My Dad passed on the attached photos for me to scan. When he checked
his records, it appears the wreck was not the 3591, but instead the 3563.
The date written on the envelope of the Vancouver Province Newspaper
envelope is November 7. 1956 -- I assume the date of the wreck. As for
the 3591, it might be another story.

Attached are two scans taken by the CNR the following day. The tank
cars were filled with gasoline which fortunately did not derail. The
locomotive tender can be seen in one of the photos -- it slid further
into the Fraser River overnight.

In the wreck, my Dad mentioned that the locomotive went as far as
the boiler into the river with the cab fortunately not going into the
water. The engineer was Nickolaieff, brakeman McRae, and my Dad,
William Hicks, was the fireman. They all walked out of the wreck and
back to the caboose. The caboose was eventually taken by a work
train back to Fort Langley. From there, my Dad was taken to hospital.

So, the 3563 is still there in the Fraser River, somewhere near
Mt. Lehman, between Matsqui (Abbotsford) and Fort Langley.

As far as I know, there is no longer a copyright on the photos. So
reproduction should not likely be a problem.

Kind regards,

Robert Hicks
Vancouver, BC