Would it be fair to suggest at this point that if he wants support, he'd do well to provide greater transparency about his current financial situation and business plan? I think what he's asking for is almost like a private firm seeking investors....and something akin to a prospectus is in order at the very least.

[While we all would like to see EBT preserved and set up for success, we'd all also like to know that any proposal on the table has a reasonable chance of achieving that goal before we decide it's worth our investment.

I don't fault any entrepreneur for having tried and failed in previous ventures, so long as he's tried and succeeded in others.......but there's a lot of unknown quantity here that makes "trust me" not nearly enough from my perspective.

dave

Nicely said.

Heck, I haven't even seen any outright solicitation for "donations to the cause" yet. For all we know, this is being bankrolled by Disney, or a lottery winner.

Alexander, you seem to have overlooked the "Donations can be sent to EBTPA" line that was in the NRHS article, then repeated in this Press Release on PRWeb.

The press release seems to have generated national coverage, as evidenced by how the press release is posted on the websites of WLNS, Channel 6 Television, Fox-14 Television, KAIT, ABC Channel 8 Television, WCSC, Channel 5 Television, and WIFR Radio

And I've seen someone set up a Kickstarter page looking for donations of money to help pay for their living expenses, a house, and a car. No, seriously. With no explanation except "I'm on disability." No, seriously, it wasn't a farce or satire--the guy was completely serious. (And, arguably, a bit mentally slow. I can say that for certain--I've met the guy a while back.)

No. That isn't a solicitation. That's simply begging.

And, like the Kickstarter solicitation, the only thing THAT "Donations may be sent...." begging is going to make me do is step back, grab my wallet a little tighter, and start wondering who's going to clean up the mess if and when that guy crashes and burns, and how much it's going to cost all of us, directly or indirectly.

Show me your plan. Show me what you have in mind. Show me what your long-term proposals are. Answer my hardened, cynical questions to my satisfaction.

Hell, at the risk of going even further off topic, we have a whole bunch of us asking similar demands of the national management of the NRHS. And we're ALREADY giving them money!

It's also really common. A pal of mine has a teenage daughter with some comical entitlement issues. She got really offended when Daddy explained that she had to make a living now that she was 18 and didn't want to go to College... or work at a job. So she set up one of these with photos of herself, looking as pretty as she can (she could get by on her looks but genetics are catching up with her big time, she's in some seriously denial on that, too) and people have actually fallen for it. They're donating money to her for no reason other than she's asking. Kind of hard to find fault with her line of thinking if it works (for now, anyway).AMEN. I'm at the point where I don't donate nothin' to nobody unless I know the cause and am handing over the money directly. For example, I was at the Doe River Gorge Christian camp a few years back (they have maintained the re-created ET&WNC tracks through the gorge) and they gave me and my nephew a speeder ride to the top. I donated them a chunk of change as we left, even though there was no stress to do so. I could clearly see what they'd done, what they were doing, and knew the money was physically going to the right people. My only regret was not making it anonymous, as they wasted a lot of that money sending me request for more money for a couple of years afterward...

It remains that the only adverse thing I've heard about this group comes from Superheater, and I question his reliablility and his bias. Further, his argument is vacuous since he's trying to prove a something from absence of data. All the other "signal" here is handwringing from others who take Superheater's word on it.


Kickstarter is for ANYTHING. ANYTHING. And your problem with that is--??? This is the FREE market being FREE. Allow everything (that doesn't harm innocents); and see what shakes out. The very nature of freedom is that it offends people's sensibilities, so if you're annoyed, thanks for supporting the Constitution.

Now, Kickstarter DOES NOT support charitable deductions, because Kickstarter doesn't want to deal with the paperwork and compliance issues of being a Sponsoring Organization.

If you want a Kickstarter-like fundraising site that supports 501c3 nonprofits, several months ago I did the diligence and IndieGoGo came to the top of the list. This area moves so fast that could be different *checks watch* now.



Shouldn't cost us anything. The risk should be to the donors for the amount of their donation.


Don't hold your breath, Sandy.

Honestly. If every project's fundraising is held up until the last crusty naysayer was "sold" and tossed in his five dollars, nothing would ever be done in preservation, ever. For a promoter, there's a serious question of how much effort he spends proving the project vs. how much money he gets. There's a point of diminishing returns, where it's just not worth doing the legwork to dazzle the cynical. It's wheel-spinning. When I'm spending $2 of my valuable time and resources to pry $1 out of your wallet... nothing personal, all due respect, I got a project to run.

Now if that sounds like the old refrain of "your opinion ain't worth beans", well, kinda sorta. Your opinion is worth pretty much what has been your proven track record for giving, or doing. You want proof, well, swings both ways my friend. If you've got a proven track record of pitching $10,000 for projects similar to this one, then there 'ya go. If you've left a trail behind you of failing ventures turned successful, then, there's that. What's your game?

It remains that the most positive thing I've heard about this group comes from robertmacdowell and I question his capacity and his objectivity. Further, his argument is vacuous since he's trying to prove a something from absence of data. All the other "signal" here is cheerleading from robertmacdowell, since there's not others that take robertmacdowell's word on it.

I wish I could agree.

I've seen quite a few "projects" where taxpayers were "guilt-tripped" into "bailing out" the remains of a failed and/or mismanaged project, in ways that were less than ideal. Among these are/were Steamtown in Scranton, London & North Eastern 4472 in Britain, and (arguably) PRR 1361. And that's just in the rail preservation field.

I remember, with some chuckles, a financial planner I was visiting on the phone with a client trying to diplomatically explain to him/her just why the investment opportunity for which he had reviewed the prospectus was a "dud." As he was trying to be politically correct, his assistant kept drawing a series of quick cartoons and showing them to me with a blank, grim face--two dollar signs above an arrow pointing into a toilet, for example.

Feel free to toss money at them. But any foundation, etc. with the serious coinage to make a serious difference has a fiduciary responsibility to its board and/or stakeholders to assure that this proposal is grounded in ITS version of reality, not some version conjured up by you, the EBTPA, or the sellers of the EBT.

But even a broken clock is correct twice each day! :-) A couple of observations, Robert:

(1) The "East Broad Top Preservation Association" appears to be a single person (Larry Salone), not a group.

(2) Earlier in this thread, I suggested that people should simply speak to the East Broad Employees that worked for Mr. Salone during the years that his EBTPA ran the railroad. If you are not able to speak with the former employees directly, at least check out these two very recent posts over at the Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum: NGDF Post on June 11, 2013 08:28AM and NDGF Post on June 11, 2013 09:03AM
I do not want to 'out' the authors of those posts, but I know them and they both show up in many recent pictures of the EBT.

(3) Earlier today at the NGDF, I made a post about the IRS Form 990s for the Railroaders Heritage Corporation, the entity that employs Mr. Salone as Executive Direct of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum and also runs the Horseshoe Curve site. Here's the link to my post: NGDF - NNG: Larry Salone & the Altoona Railroaders Museum/Horseshoe Curve Site [More IRS Form 990 Info]

(4)In May, the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society ran Nickel Plate #765 on some trips around Horseshoe Curve. Here's a thread about it, over at the discussion forum of O-Gauge Railroading:
O Gauge Railroading magazine's Discussion Forum - Nickel Plate 765 May 18, 2013
On that weekend, the Railroaders Heritage Corporation tripled the admission fee to Horseshoe Curve (from $6.25 to $20), required two uniformed FWRHS crewmembers (765 Engineer Rich Melvin & 765 fireman Kelly Lynch) to both pay that $20 admission fee, and then the Railroaders Heritage Corporation did not even share any of the revenue with the FWRHS!

Judging by the sparse visitorship to the Horseshoe Curve park in the 765 video posted on the O Gauge Railroading forum, I would assume that word about the $20 admission had gotten out and most fans were finding other alternatives.

I'm still not over the fact that the park even has an admission after being free for the first 100 years of its existence.

I doubt the park is ever as crowded as it was during the NKP #765 runs. It was packed when I arrived on Sunday - and that was for the return trip. Lots of people seemed to be leaving as I was arriving for the image below.

A "forced" chaser fee, but hopefully to a good cause. I didn't mind, though I'd be pretty upset if I had to pay a hundred bucks to take the family up! And before anyone says anything, I renewed my membership with the FWRHS last month.

Back to EBT...

/Mitch

Darn it, Mitch, we were there Sunday and didn't know you were too. I was over by the tree trying to hide behind it to stay out of everybody's pictures, but Tom and Gabe were up at the fence to your right rear.

The problem I had with the fee last year was that no one knew how many people would be there or whether they would have a spot, which is why even a lot of the life members didn't go. This year we took the chance, but were shocked that there was STILL no chance to make reservations, etc.--I don't think they wanted anyone to know until they were at the door. While we were in the gift shop, the shriek of "HOW much?" was nearly universal, and the gift shop employees were selling yearly memberships to most of the people who didn't leave right away. That doesn't seem like a good way to run a business.

Name tags! Name tags!! Oh, well - sorry I missed the opportunity to say hello.

Not to veer off the subject, but as for the $20 tickets, you'd have figured they would have at least put up a grand stand for observers to get a good view. Maybe even include a hot dog and bottle of water.

/Mitch

In the only modest defense I can offer of the whole HSC admission fee debacle, let's look at it this way: The staff at the Curve, such as it is, shouldn't realistically be expected to know Melvin and Lynch on sight. Heck, since they weren't really even stopping in Altoona AT ALL during this year's trips except for lunch and water/fuel, there's not exactly enough reason to expect anyone at the Curve, or even Altoona, to know these two. If the Railroaders Memorial Museum had sponsored the trips, maybe. But they didn't. Heck, there's a bunch of people I used to run into often enough in years past that I'm not confident I would recognize right away in a different setting--the Strasburg guys, many folks here, the old NS steam guys, etc. (There's nothing like running into steam shop restoration guys at your local Belgian-beer bar when you're not expecting them.)

I have times when I am in a position to show up at a (non-rail-preservation) function or event unannounced, in a media capacity. If I haven't tipped off the "powers that be" in advance, and they wouldn't recognize me on sight from years of working with me, I simply canNOT expect someone who's for all practical purposes just a "flunky" to just let me in because I'm wearing some coal-stained clothing or nametag. At best, I pull out my business card (related to the business at hand, not just something with my name on it), and politely ask them to see if they can get authorization from a "higher-up." At worst, I pony up the admission and discuss it later. More often, however, I make arrangements in advance.

It stinks, in the grand scheme of things, that Melvin and Lynch had to "pony up" to go up trackside. At best, it will be a learning experience for both FWRHS and ARRMM (and, by extension, NS). At worst, the bad publicity will do the damage.

re: Chris Webster-Nice Sleuthing. It's nice to see somebody actually use a 990 as intended, and your post saved me a good bit of time in making a different case.

Three jeers to Guidestar for indicating Scott Cessna was still the principal contact. That hasn't been true since "somebody" engineered his removal.

I checked the directors of the Railroaders Heritage Corporation. It appears that they are independent (internet searches showed a physician, a Sheetz financial executive, a retired rail industry executive, a small business owner, an attorney, and others) and based upon their professional backgrounds they should should be capable. I'm wondering if they realize their executive director is moonlighting-a lot. They probably should consider a supplementary employment policy for individuals employed on a full-time basis. It is extremely odd that the ED makes less than the Director of Administration, having had a brief meeting with Ms. Hershey several years ago to provide a payment, I was under the impression she reported to him, but my memory could be in error.

Some additional points:

1.) Interesting that PA Southern Railcar is located in Dubois, specifically 1562 Treasure Lk, Du Bois, PA, 15801-9042

http://companies.findthecompany.com/l/2 ... Du-Bois-PA

2.) It's further interesting that Mr. Salone was seeking municipal office in Treasure Lake and apparently not well regarded by a poster for, among other things employing his kids=hey a lot of those complaints sound familiar:

See Item 4.

http://www.treasurelaketalk.com/2012/07 ... -shells-2/

3.) Zillow describes that address as a home. The map makes it clear it is a lakefront home, not a railyard.
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1562- ... 4890_zpid/

4.) Apparently Larry's a civic minded guy, because he donates thousands to political causes:

http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/ ... p?cycle=10


5.) Ordinarily, I have no problem with anybody's political contributions, except if they appear on the Post-amnesty, (meaning he ignored the Commonwealth of PA program a couple years ago which allowed tax deliquents to voluntarily come forward, without fear of prosecution and with either waived or reduced fees/interest) tax delinquent list indicating that they were in arrears to the tune of $85,800. Nobody hates taxes more than me-but if I owe the state 85K, I'll suspend non-necessities to discharge that debt. It does make me question the prioritization skills, something that I suspect will be necessary to get the EBT off the ventilator.

See page 13:

http://media.philly.com/documents/PA_ta ... amount.pdf

You see Robert, having been an auditor, I have a finely tuned nose. It's extremely sensitive to the murine odor.

"Don't make me angry Mr. McGee, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry."

-David Bruce Banner

BTW, if they really wanted to make some money off Messrs Melvin and Lynch, they should have paid them to autograph something and sold it at a premium price, not extracted a 20 from them- it's cravenly cheap and unappreciative.