Sad.....just sad.

adammil1 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:21 pm

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

Les: Were YOU, personally, OR YOUR ORGANIZATION, in actual need of any of the artifacts listed? Does your mission statement specifically outline the acquisition of a wooden caboose, or a turntable, or a steam crane, or a tank car? If so, have you/your group ever approached them with an offer, specific or vague, and left your contact info? If you had been told "here's a tank car, come and get it," how soon would you or your board have been able to act?

Were YOU OR YOUR ORGANIZATION both financially and logistically capable of acquiring, transporting, restoring, and putting to use the items in question?

I know of one group out there that was looking for a steam crane, I know when the one on the west coast came up they were sending someone to look at it, but the shipping was going to be quite the killer. Perhaps Kansas would have been more feasible. I don't know. The bottom line as this person points out is with the internet today it really shouldn't be that hard to create a site where these things can be listed, and shown so when things do get scrapped hopefully it is only after no one else came forward for it.

I wouldn't mind helping to put a site like that together, does anyone who has done this before have any suggestions as to how to put together such a site?

ARM TRAIN editor · **Joined:** Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:57 pm **Posts:** 109

Just wanted to respond to the comment that the railway preservation press likes this sort of story because it perpetuates the myth of over-collecting. My job is to report the news, and any equipment disposition is news, hence the story. It so happens that recently a number of museums have been disposing of pieces that either don't fit their collection policies or are viewed as beyond their ability to restore economically or in a timely manner. This is a trend and I happen to approve of it, but there was no hidden agenda behind that news report.
Aaron Isaacs, editor
Trainline/Railway Museum Quarterly

PS: Now that ARM and TRAIN have approved the merger to become the Association of Tourist Railroads and Railway Museums, the next issue will be renamed Tourist Railroads and Railway Museums.

robertmacdowell · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:50 am

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

robertmacdowell wrote:

Of course. That is where the fallacy COMES FROM. It is a very reasonable, natural and obvious conclusion from exactly what you and Sandy observe. Yet still, the conclusion is wrong.

So you magically cull the fleet by half, and now what??? What is cured??? Not a damn thing. The surviving half will STILL be returning to nature.

Why is that presumed?

Take a hypothetical: A museum with ten pieces of rolling stock and a station. The station and five pieces are pretty well maintained--the caboose, the operable 44-tonner, the coach, the box car, and the baggage car with the displays that aren't in the station. The two old Pullman camp cars, the wooden ex-MOW boxcar, the other caboose with all the windows smashed out and the remains of a fire inside, the four-wheel Plymouth switcher with a cracked block, and the leaky tank car all need help and/or have been untouched for twenty years. The membership is not there to stay ahead of the rust and decay on all ten pieces and the station.

Scrap the latter five, and you have a coherent, focused collection that you can keep painted and stay on top of, and you look like an attractive local rail museum, not a junkyard masquerading as a museum. And now, maybe, it'll be taken more seriously by the locals, the schools, prospective members, and prospective donors. And there's room if somehow the local shortline decides to donate that more modern (and relevant to 21st-century fans) GP38, hi-cube box car, or covered hopper.

That's a rosy picture. Several factors are ignored. You are overlooking the political deadlock that makes this type of culling impossible - after all every one of those pieces was gotten for a reason. And when you break that deadlock "magically", the political storm over people's beloved pieces being scrapped, even if they didn't love those particular units, they now realize nothing is sacred. So 30% of the volunteers quit in disgust and you are back to not enough people to maintain what remains.

And then, people go "Aha, there's room at the museum now" and they get that GP38, hi-cube and covered hopper. Meanwhile the 44 ton hits the unobtanium wall, the hi-cube replaces the boxcar, and why on earth did we get that covered hopper? You guessed it, we're soon back to where we started. Sisyphus pushing his stone.

You also overlook the effects of weather which cannot be remedied with paint. Weather is still penetrating, condensation, freeze thaw slowly returning the cars to earth. Eventually they will be untenable even as a static display.

True story, a historically important car was sold to a member to raise revenue (in lieu of scrapping it). And that seemed like a win/win at the time. But as things evolved, management got it in their head to exit the private car storage business (also good in principle) and stomped up and down and demanded that he remove the car from the property. Which was way, way beyond his capability. The manager then escalated, demanding that he move or scrap it. It broke his heart to scrap it, but the manager could not be worked with. Unfortunately, he and his friends were the only competent mechanics at the place. This was a blow. And so it goes.

This is what happens Sandy. BTDT. This is a losing game.

You reject my theory but take yours for granted. REALLY? Your turn to prove it. Show me. Show me a museum, particularly an operating one, which found long-term success via culling.

So if culling is not the answer... what is? Maybe something we've been overlooking because it's hard.

Quote:

Now, no, in no way is this outcome guaranteed. But it's, on average, a far likelier outcome than some Powerball or Lotto winner sweeping in and writing a "blank check" for new car barns/pole sheds, coats of paint for everything, and an endowment to maintain it in perpetuity. I'll play the odds, thank you.

Oh, PLEASE. The Lotto excuse is the stock-and-trade of the naysayer. When somebody says "Well of course we're going to buy X. Oh but we can't do Y unless we hit the Lotto"... that really means the person wants to do X and doesn't want Y. It's the last thing he'd spend the money on. (I equate "fears that Y is not achievable and doesn't dare to dream" as equivalent to "don't want Y", because it has the same effect.)

The lotto lie is to save face, to pretend Y is so expensive as to be off the table and therefore X not chosen over it. Of course X is a choice. And it's a BAD choice, and this is known by the speaker. Hence the need to lie about it.

You know what must be done.

Museums need to merely put 10% of their income into game-changers such as carbarns. The impact would be more than 10%, eh? Once the organization COMMITS, the campaign would gain momentum and come together faster than expected. That's how fundraising works. And you know that too.

So what's to be afraid of?

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:00 am

robertmacdowell wrote:

That's a rosy picture. Several factors are ignored. You are overlooking the political deadlock that makes this type of culling impossible - after all every one of those pieces was gotten for a reason. And when you break that deadlock "magically", the political storm over people's beloved pieces being scrapped, even if they didn't love those particular units, they now realize nothing is sacred. So 30% of the volunteers quit in disgust and you are back to not enough people to maintain what remains.

I am willing to concede that this aspect should be factored in. But going to the real-world example upon which I (loosely) based my hypotheticals:
*The guy who got the wooden boxcar died several years ago, and it looks about as bad as those wooden cars we saw in the NH&I thread, and though it's apparently the last survivor of that particular design, it still looks like heck because the original railroad's tech & historical society could never be persuaded to contribute to a paint job, let alone restoration;
*The Pullman camp cars were acquired by diverting them surreptitiously from a hospital train for junking thirty years ago, and in spite of the best intentions they've only been used a couple times a year for bunk and cooking space;
*The caboose was acquired as a parts source for the other caboose, which now looks pretty good as a result;
*that Plymouth with a cracked block was sent up the track from a nearby industry when it froze 30 years ago, and that industry has shut down and disappeared, abandoning its still-operable replacement Plymouth out back awaiting salvage or rescue;
*The GP38, boxcar, or covered hopper that could be donated? Actually has local ties and operated over the trackage they have, or was built by the local car shops or plant, and is therefore mission-centric as a historic relic, as opposed to that 44-tonner that was grabbed just so there was something to switch with and the Pullmans that never operated through the area.
*etc.

And those folks that are going to get all hot and bothered and storm off because you scrapped "Jim's boxcar" or "Albert's caboose"? You know, given the fact that these folks and their collective mentality and lethargy have caused the situation that this place is in to begin with, I'm really not that worried about what they think, you know? I might give a little more deference to the guy who founded the place and personally spearheaded the fund drive to save the station, but he died fifteen years ago. I'm more worried about who's going to inherit this stuff, and I'd much rather that the only kid of a member that seems willing to stick around and help until he discovers girls gets some help and support from a couple of his peers. That's not going to happen with a "junkyard."

This is the difference between a museum or historical society, and a 1:1 model train club of "old boys playing with trains." With all due respect, Brother MacDowell appears to be defending the latter mentality. I'm rejecting it.

We are all stuck with the job of waving our hands over the property to the younger generations and saying "One day, all of this could be yours...." Do that to them with a junkyard of old, decrepit equipment, or a disorganized storage locker full of old books and magazines, and they're going to turn around and run like hell, and I can't blame them. Present to them an attractive, well-reasoned collection kept in reasonable repair and rational thought, where you're keeping up with wear and tear rather than your Sisyphus pushing the stone, and they'll come and stick around, and wait to grab the baton when passed.

Quote:

You reject my theory but take yours for granted. REALLY? Your turn to prove it. Show me. Show me a museum, particularly an operating one, which found long-term success via culling.

Wilmington & Western. Thanks to their culls from their days of trying to be the "next Steamtown," the Reading & Northern has operable GM&N 425, Gaithersburg has a now-handsome BC&G 2-8-0, Walkersville Southern has a cute Plymouth switcher, and we just saw Jersey Central 113 return to operation. And one of their current jewels, PRR 4662, is itself a "cull" from the embryonic National Capital Trolley Museum/Baltimore Streetcar Museum. And they have scrapped a few "lost cause" cars as well. Even two storms haven't destroyed them.

Mr. Ed · **Posted:** Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:24 am

Is the glass half full or half empty? This thread will go on into perpetuity!

Later!
Mr. Ed

Les Beckman · **Joined:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm **Posts:** 6488

Les Beckman wrote:

There was a recent thread here on RyPN about the scrapping of a stainless steel Rock Island passenger coach; RI #319 Narcissus (see "Was there a logical reason...."). There were a number of comments made about the car, but the primary thing that was upsetting was that it seemed the car was not offered to anyone, but just scrapped.

At the museum this past Saturday, I picked up a copy of the latest (Fall 2012) combined RAILWAY MUSEUM QUARTERLY/TRAINLINE magazine and I found a report that the Midland Railway in Baldwin City, Kansas, had "a major scrapping program of derelict equipment (that) has thinned the collection and raised considerable revenue." It then listed the items which included a coach, tank car, steam crane, turntable, transfer table, wood caboose, gondola, lightweight coach and another caboose. I don't recall any of this stuff being offered to other museums. If I am wrong and there was such an offering, please tell me. Now I realize that many museums have "too much stuff" and can't take care of all of it. But shouldn't we at least be telling other organizations about this first, to see if anyone might want some of these items?

There was a recent thread on RyPN of the idea for a "Most Endangered List". I kept quiet about that, but I think the idea had merit. Just a list of equipment or structures that are endangered. Maybe if such a list was out there, and if it was publicized, the folks in Baldwin City, Kansas would have had a place to put the stuff that the no longer wanted. We have lost a goodly number of items through the years, that might have been saved if there had been a saviour. Yes, much of that stuff was bad, and not all could be saved, or should have been saved. But we all know of success stories, by museums, groups and, yes, even individuals. Are we going to continue to get rid of stuff and not even tell others about it? When is this attitude going to change? I hope in the near future.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

I originally started this thread with the idea that perhaps it was time to start a place on the internet where items that museums no longer wanted could be posted BEFORE they were scrapped. There subsequently were a number of comments made by folks about museums and their collections, much of which has been talked about before on this forum. Some of these were negative toward myself, and the museum where I am a member, but I'm not going to get into this now, although I will comment in the future. Two folks however, made comments that were very thoughtful, and I am going to quote a couple of lines here:

J.R.May said "If a museum must get rid of something, what are the options? RailSwap, RyPN, ebay, OMR, etc.?"

adammil1 said "with the internet today, it really shouldn't be that hard to create a site where these things can be listed and shown so when things do get scrapped hopefully it is after no one else came forward for it".

With these in mind, I'm going to start a separate thread in the near future, that is just a proposal for starting such an idea. Comments can be made there. And also stones thrown, as folks see fit.

Les