....so that you can bring a hoist cable right next to the smokebox front, without dismounting the bell. Would make it easier to pull a superheater unit!

Jeff

With a steam engine coming, erm,.. I think with so much of an attraction everybody knows whats coming (most of them anyways..)

4449 you would have to change the front smokebox streamlining cover for a single headlight. For 261 if mars light mounts are on the smokebox you would have to cover the mount holes if they go thru the smokebox metal so smoke/exhaust doesn't poke thru. 765 has a new front for a single headlight, adding a mars would take some work, the older original has the mount holes but time and use has burned into the metal so it would not be used.

....so that you can bring a hoist cable right next to the smokebox front, without dismounting the bell. Would make it easier to pull a superheater unit!

Jeff[/quote]


I never thought of that, but now that you mention it, we left the bell right where it was during the last few years of work.

That makes no sense. Superheater units are not just in the center and to help lift the what difference does a foot or so closer make? And no one else saw fit to mount appliances off center for that reason.

Steve

Because it is easier to service from the running board when mounted off center.

Appliances shouldn't be located where they "look good" but where the maintenance crews can reach them.

Keith

Yes yet so few saw fit to mount the bell off center for that reason alone.

Steve

Off center bells weren't entirely unique, though; they were actually pretty common on the B&O, likely for clearance reasons in that road's ancient and small tunnels:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo6108s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo6121s.jpg

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-s5300.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo7130s.jpg

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/bo7309s.jpg

If you disagree so savagely with the current-restoration arrangement of auxiliaries on the locomotive, I'm sure the current owners would be happy to give you a price to purchase the 261 so you can alter/restore her the way you believe your God intended her to look.....

We had a local rail historian who once humorously/sarcastically said that the off-center bells were the primary reason that steam fanatics of days past thought the B&O roster was made up of "rolling mud fences." Personally, I can find a lot more esthetically wrong with the appearances of a lot of B&O steam than just that. But look at the wrong areas of most steam rosters, and you'll find similar esthetic travesties. And it doers come down to taste--one man's "disaster of appurtenances, badly wrought angles, and brutish proportions" is another's "powerful angular expression." (Look at folks who prefer either the EMD SD40 or the Alco C-636.)

Time to dust off Ed King's "The Rolling Mud Fence" article in Trains' February 1985 issue.........

While the super heater units "are not just in the center", they are roughly centered behind the smokebox door, which is centered, and they do not extend to the far left or right sides of the boiler.

As for the advantages of getting a foot or so closer, when supporting a long object, like a superheater unit, it is to your GREAT advantage to support it at the center of gravity. Every foot closer the hoist cable gets to the smokebox front is one foot less that you have to haul the unit out while supporting it by other means.

See also the reply, just previous to yours:



Jeff

"And it doers come down to taste--one man's "disaster of appurtenances, badly wrought angles, and brutish proportions" is another's "powerful angular expression." (Look at folks who prefer either the EMD SD40 or the Alco C-636.)"--Alexander D, Mitchel IV

Gee wiz, I wonder what a lot of people would think of the roster of the Chesapeake and Ohio--flying pumps everywhere, exposed plumbing everywhere, and headlights under the chin on 2-8-4s, 4-8-4s, and 4-6-4s--not a typical looking roster at all!!

The smokebox front was a Milwaukee Road modification from a more standard appearing front. This was to enable easier boiler maintenance with respect to flue, tube and superheater element removal and replacement.

The mars light was added to the S3's circa 1949 or '50.

The mars light does not come on only if the brakes are set to emergency. There is a switch to turn it on at any time. Has been used in recent history when the engine is backing, or running backward in the second half of a one direction movement, with a diesel at the other end pulling the train in the opposite direction.

Frankly, to me, and many others, it doesn't matter much at all what the front end looks like. What matters is that it runs.

Mark D.

I want to make sure I said this correctly. I never once said the 261 stinks without the mars light. Same with the 765 No, on the contrary. I love the locomotives and any steam running is good steam no matter what the piece of machinery looks like. My thing was if it helps with safety, leave it on. The Canadian National may even require steam locomotives to carry ditch lights now as the Kamloops CN 2141? is equipped with them. Someone please chime in on that railroad's regulations, please, as I'm always willing to learn something new. All I'm saying is, in today's modern thinking of sue or be sued, put all the bells and whistles on them that may prevent even more lawsuits than necessary, especially in a grade crossing accident. Obviously, have some common sense. I would rather see mainline steam run with or without mars lights or ditch lights. But again, if having it on helps you win in a court of law, use it.

And actually, this just in from the one who knows the most about it, the REAL reasons for the mars light and bell being off center.
It was due to locomotive height restriction operating into Chicago Union Station.

The height requirements were, "...specified by the Milwaukee Road to Alco when the locomotive was ordered in 1944. If you look at the 261, it's total height is 15' 6" at the top of the stack, compared to most west coast locomotives that are 16' or more. In recent years locomotives such as the 4449 have had problems operating through CUS, such as when the 4449 went to Train Festival in Michigan, if you recall the 4449 had to be routed around CUS. I believe the 4449 is 16' + tall..."

And, not necessarily related to appearance; "Additionally it was specified in the order that the locomotive would have to negotiate an 18 degree curve for operating out the North side of Chicago Union Station."

The above also rules out a lot of steam locomotives.
Mark D.

To the guy with the annoying graphic - yes, superheater elements do go pretty far to both sides of the boiler and are not just gathered in the center. I'd estimate the superheater flues in most applications I've worked on have taken up at least 90% of the total width of the portion of the FTS that has anything rolled into it......some as wide as the entire tube cluster. It isn't uncommon to remove the door ring as well as the door itself when removing all the elements for flue work and required inspections for this reason.

And, without annoying other readers with distracting flashing BS, no boilers were injured in the provision of real information in this post, and hopefully nobody offended apart from yourself.

dave