I like the above statement. A lot has been collected, but maybe it is not a good sampling of what was out there. Maybe preservationists did not always save the right stuff.

A quick example:

I have a cigar box full of steam locomotive shots that were made in Wisconsin in the 50's. I see tons of Milwaukee Road locomotives in these photos. But interestingly, not a single Milwaukee steam loco survives today in Wisconsin. At least, I can't find one on-line.

Another Wisconsin example:

I see only a few surviving steam locomotives in Wisconsin today from the late steam era. Of those, only one seems relevant to Wisconsin history: a CB&Q 4-6-4 built in 1930. From my cigar box photo collection, here is a modern steam loco that would have been a very good preservation candidate for Wisconsin: Green Bay & Western 2-8-2, built 1937-39.

A good preservation pick because:

- GB&W was an old, home-grown Wisconsin railroad.
- This 2-8-2 was an example of the pinnacle of steam in Wisconsin.
- This 2-8-2 was unique to Wisconsin because it was custom-designed for GB&W (see quote below).
- The success of this ALCO led to the purchase of ALCO diesels by GB&W.

Very interesting paragraph about the GB&W 2-8-2 from steamlocomotive.com :

Photos from my collection below show all six of the 2-8-2's sitting in a scrap line in Green Bay, some time in the 1950's. Is there a story why not one of these was saved?

Absolutely relevant topic! As both a high school history teacher and active railroad preservantionist I understand with some depth the complexity of this issue. You would be amazed at the apathy I face in my U.S. history course. My colleagues and I discuss this topic at great length and unfortunately have developed little in the way of solutions. Most disheartening is the growing lack of natural curiosity about the world we live in. I am the least bit surprised that most museums have the attendance issues they do. We have become too comfortable and dare I say overstimulated. A bunch of old trains, rusting away, do not stand a chance against a trip to Six Flags or an hour of watching "Jersey Shore" on MTV. Look at what the History Channel has been reduced to! Not that I do not find Pawn Stars entertaining but what message is this sending young Americans, especially about preservation? I once asked my class, "How many of you have ever ridden a train?" Zero. Imagine if I had asked that question even thirty years ago? I would argue that saving anything else is a moot point, not just because we, as has been pointed out numerous times, cannot even stabilize/preserve what we already have but because the newer generation has no ties whatsoever to the industry.

Often times members of RYPN cite the British preservationist movement as the pinnacle of historical appreciation. I agree. But what is rarely discussed is why, precisely, is this? I would aruge it is historical nostlagia. Brit's are proud of their contribution to the world especially at the height of the empire. However, they are hardly the superpower that imperialized large portions of Africa and was once home to the largest navy in the world. To put it another way, does a 16 year-old boy think, "Wow, I am so thankful I do not wake up with aches and pains every morning?" Of course not. On the other hand, the 65 year-old man would give anything to have that time in his life back. Same idea applies to history. So the question is, as we continue to weaken politically and economically, will their be a renewed interest in railroads and history in general? Will the nostalgia of, "What was once great" make us reflect on the people and machines that made us this way? Perhaps but by then it might be too late.

The same story as every other "missed opportunity": At the time one could have been saved, there were insufficient resources and/or insufficient interest. I mean, there was a railroad museum eventually installed in Green Bay, one with a purportedly "national" focus. That they didn't get one means either that they weren't preserving things in time, they were rebuffed by the Green Bay & Western, they couldn't come up with the resources to save it, and/or they were simply apathetic to the ordinary, mundane "home town" locomotives.

(We see the latter syndrome time and time again everywhere you go--people flock to the museums to see the "world's fastest/most expensive car" while ignoring the Ford Model T; they want to see Dorothy's "ruby slippers" while ignoring the lowly moccasin; they want to see the dolphins and sharks while ignoring the crabs, skates, and trout......)

You can repeat this time and time again for whatever you wish were saved that wasn't. We simply can't save everything, or even one of everything we think might warrant preservation. Yet we have a few too many UP Big Boys and PRR GG1's.

We can't even save what we already collected. Why worry about what is gone?

dave

Learning from past mistakes. And successes.

If you go over the methodology, missions, and mistakes enough times, you have a ready, well-rehearsed, and well-reasoned answer when someone demands "why are you saving a Metroliner? Why don't you get that PRR business car instead?" or "why aren't you saving that historic caboose over in the park in the next town over?" ("ummm, because we already have another one and there are fifteen others of that class saved elsewhere?") or "Let's grab that extra GG1 and put it on display in our home-town station!" Or, better yet, you have a sound case to present to others for the preservation of what might otherwise be an "underdog"--that "perfectly ordinary" or "boring" box car, commuter car, Amfleet car, or F40PH. I'm willing to wager that the GB&W 2-8-2 referenced earlier didn't pass muster because it was "boring" to the locals.

As responsible (we hope) custodians of railroad history and artifacts, we have to--nay, are forced to--every now and then be the "bad parent" that says "no," "Sorry, but..." or even "Aw, HELL, No!!!" And we have to be able to make our case without being wrongfully accused of being "nattering nabobs of negativity," as one character is wont to say here.

I might be wrong, but I believe that the GB&W 2-8-2's were gone before the museum in Green Bay was started. What is more surprising, is that a Green Bay & Western steamer still survives! Sold to a paper company, the Consolidation is now at Mid-Continent. I often thought that the museum there should have restored THAT engine to service. It certainly has ties to the state of Wisconsin!

Les

"I might be wrong, but I believe that the GB&W 2-8-2's were gone before the museum in Green Bay was started."

Les[/quote]

That is correct. All six GB&W 2-8-2's were out of service in 1950 and sold for scrap in 1952. The National Railroad Museum originally started with the idea of just a display of one engine in the mid 1950's, and accepted the 261 in 1956. In that same time span the idea morphed into a museum rather than just a display. By that time the GB&W Mikados were long gone.

A website says they sat until 1956 before being scrapped. There were probably a few folks who wanted one saved, but I imagine they were just not organized enough back then to make it happen.

"The six 2-8-2's were stored in the roundhouse for several years and then moved to an outdoor storage track in the nearby Milwaukee Road's Oakland Avenue yard when local scrap dealer Betten's Salvage made an offer to purchase all six. What had been the pride of the Green Bay Route, costing $83,425 each only a dozen years earlier, were sold for $36,000 for the entire lot. In 1956 they were finally dragged to the scrap yard."

Source: http://www.greenbayroute.com/1954401.htm

I found in two places the Date of Nov. 1, 1952 as the date the six Mikados were sold to Bettens: http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1017.htm .
However I also did find pictures and info stating that they remained in Green Bay in either the Norwood yard or the Milwaukee Road Oakland yard until 1956 before being hauled out for scrap. So you are correct that they were here in town until 1956, but evidently not owned by the GB&W Railroad after Nov. 1952.

At the risk of getting myself into trouble by replacing something that was removed, I'm just going to stick this here:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/dailyco ... 71356.html

and then comment that while some people would get riled up at the political story in this, I see it more as a generational, attitudinal, and priority issue.

First brief comment (oh, why is there so little time in the day?)--Why is historic preservation such a low, low, priority in this nation, in this culture? I would argue that we have a serious society problem. For lack of a better term, I'll call it the Midas Complex, after the legend of King Midas, who had to find out the hard way that gold wasn't everything. I fear we are too consumed about money, and not enough about what we should do with it. I can talk about businesses that make what seem to me obscene amounts of money for their owners (i.e., salaries on the order of $500.00 per day or more) while providing (cough) "services" of questionable real value (cough, "adult" entertainment). (I'm an auditor, I get to see things like this.) Other entities, though, struggle, struggle, struggle (I see them, too).

There is also a generational issue. This was covered in a "generations and nimbys" thread some time back, and I still see that every day on some other things I read. Basically, we have some people of a certain age range who think our beloved railroads (and a lot of other things) should just go away. They typically came of age in the period between the early to middle 1950s to the first oil crunch in 1973, with the automobile being very ascendant in that time. Many think we rail preservationists belong with the stagecoach--think of how the snowmobile crowd wants to get rid of the operational Adirondack Scenic Railroad. For that matter, they think modern rail service belongs with the stagecoach, too. Check out the comments following the stories in the link below, on the subject of high-speed rail:

http://www.infrastructurist.com/2011/11 ... ail-maybe/

(Disclaimer--I'm in there, too, under my real name; I'll let you guess who I am.)

All of this in turn drives priorities. Now, I fully understand the importance of paying bills and living within your means; I have to do it, too! At the same time, we should remember something along the lines of what one politician had to say over 40 years ago. Now, this was part of a much longer speech that was mostly about Viet Nam, but this segment of it still rings true, even though some may wonder about the sincerity of the person speaking them. I would argue that the "real values" mentioned near the end of this quote are part of what drives us as rail preservationists in America:

http://www2.mccombs.utexas.edu/faculty/ ... %20GNP.htm

Just food for thought, perhaps in spite of the sources. . .

While on the subject, a "peek" at a parallel interest for some of our fellow citizens:

http://www.roadsidepeek.com/

http://www.roadsideonline.com/

Have fun.

WHAT???? Of course we can save what we collected. Some of us do.

Most of us simply choose not to. So don't say it can't be done, when what it really comes down to is, some of us don't wanna.

What are you placing as a higher priority than preservation, and why?

I never said that Robert, but thanks for asking.

My point was that energy would be better spent on what we have and aren't caring for rather than retrospective self-mutilation.

Sandy's response posits a rational approach to understand what seems to me to be an emotional and irriational situation - how can you logically understand what can't be understood other than "peoples' feelings?"

I understand that we can't save everything we want to save that is now in use, or all of what we have saved and hasn't been used for a while, or even all of what is now available, espepcially if it's in Florida lately. This is practically because we (as a national priority) don't want to, presuming we believe we live in a representative democratic republic, which is something - again, practically - of a stretch.

Suggesting possibilities that may exist in an alternate universe doesn't do much good in this one.

dave