So we(by that I mean I) am looking at painting our NYC bay window back to its original colors.

Here is what It looks like now...
http://www.railroadmichigan.com/smiche05.jpg

I hope to get it looking like this...
http://www.traincat2.com/images/models/1401105.jpg

Now my question is what would be the best way to go about doing the logo? Paint it freehand(if so could someone get me the dimensions of it)? Get a decal(where would i find one)? Stencil? Other?

General tips are would be appreciated also.

Thanks.

The Whitewater Valley Railroad just completed this NYC transfer caboose. The herald is smaller than the one you need, but it was made from three layers of vinyl. I have seen several of the originals that appear to be screen printed vinyl. Our curator had this made by a company in Cincinnati who could easily scale it up for you. PM me and I can get his contact information to you.

David Farlow

With something this large IRM would probably not use a vinyl herald. If stored outside the edges will start to peel up in around 7 to 10 years.
If stored indoors I would consider painting the black and white background and then applying vinyl lettering. You still need to produce scale artwork to have the vinyl cut.

You can also use vinyl as masking if you don’t have the hand lettering skills.

I might do this as follows.
Paint the entire background white.
Mask the word CENTRAL with low stick vinyl lettering. You can have a sign shop produce that (don’t let them use a stock font, ask for a proof) or you can cut it yourself from raw stock.
Paint the black areas and remove the mask for CENTRAL.
Mask and paint in the red words.

Doesn't anybody lay it out on paper and prick a pounce pattern any more? Even ham-handed painters like me can get decent results that way.

dave

Edited for accuracy and clarity, as I was saying something that was actually wrong. Adds/fixes in green.

There are several ways to do lettering. The "truly traditional" way was hand lettering, and this was a craft of the masters. If you want to hear about that, one of the more knowledgeable folks is Fred Krock. However that type of logo would not have been hand painted, first it's too modern and second there are too many precise curves.

Another way is stencils. I'll attach a picture of one of the WRM's stencils. It is a sheet of mylar, about 1/100" thick (10 mils). They are reusable. This one was laser-cut from an Adobe Illustrator drawing. For a multi-color logo like that you would need several stencils.

On this stencil, you see the residue of clear varnish. Why would you stencil varnish? It's being used as a glue for gold leaf. Gold leaf is an extremely thin sheet of real gold, lightly stuck to a backing paper. The varnish is applied, and stencil removed. When the varnish gets tacky, the gold leaf is rubbed over it, sticking only where there's varnish. Then the backing paper is lifted away. I'm mentioning this for a reason.

When I say "varnish" I mean either a traditional oil-based varnish, or a modern epoxy or polyurethane varnish, all of them being clear in color, and water-resistant.

Another way to stencil is to mask, i.e. masking tape. One way to do masking is use vinyl letters AS masking. This avoids the durability problem. But you have chemical compatibility issues - will the sticky-goo interact with the fresh paint you're sticking it over, and will the paint you're spraying melt the vinyl, and will the adhesive remover you use to get the sticky-goo off also strip the paint? Murphy's law: this will be worst when you use the best quality paint.

Another scheme is decals. Of course you know about vinyl decals - essentially bumper stickers. There is another type any modeler will know - a "water transfer" decal stuck to a piece of backing paper with water-soluble starchy glue. In models, you soak the decal in water, slide it off and to the model, and the water-soluble glue holds it to the model. That water-soluble glue is a real problem outdoors. The solution is to apply the decal similar to gold leaf. Paint waterproof varnish on the car as a glue, then apply the decal face-down (paper out) onto the varnish. The varnish glues the face of the decal to the side of the car. Once the varnish dries, soak the paper to remove it - the decal itself protects the newly dried varnish from the water. Then wash off the water-soluble glue off the outside of the decal; you don't want it, and its job is done (holding the decal to the backing paper).

I've seen that particular caboose up close, and the shape of the logo is plainly visible under the paint. The material appears to be something other than merely additional layers of paint, and appears to be crazed and cracked, as if it has shrunk over the years. That suggests to me a water-transfer decal, though I am merely guessing.

There'd be no way to know for sure without peeling up layers in a sample area.

Here's a photo that shows the large NYC cigar band sticker having been replaced by a small version. Dated 1971, so it probably didn't wear this much longer! This car appears to still be in the NYC Century green, instead of the slightly darker PC green.

David Farlow

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc21773alr.jpg

Clay320 -

I applaud the decision to repaint your NYC caboose. When you are finished, perhaps you will give some consideration to repainting your drop-end gondola. When I rode the Southern Michigan a number of years ago, I believe that the gon was still lettered for the New York Central. A return to that authentic paint scheme would be nice. I understand the idea behind advertising the museum, but perhaps another method could be used.

Les

Yes we still do pounce patterns too. Especially when we need to go over uneven surfaces like louvers on the IRM’s CB&Q 9255 project. The side lettering was actually provided from a person who had produced the artwork for a HO scale engine. Originally painted locomotives were available to trace. Tracing repainted work is often less than desirable. But you can get very good results scanning a good photo and making the art to scale with the right graphics program. Everyone in the sign business uses Adobe Illustrator.
Once scaled to correct outside dimensions, (in this case HO to 12"=1') via computer, it was printed to heavy stock. This photo shows the 1” “half moon” cutouts used to re-trace, or in this case scuff the black paint to provide a guide.

http://www.irm.org/gallery/9255painting/aak

Had this been sprayed on a smooth surface with low stick vinyl masking the layout and finish process may have taken around 20 hours for both sides. The process EMD used for most everything they did.
Patterns and hand painting required another 60 hours or so for two coats.

Thanks to all for the ideas so far. More replies are welcome.

I've noticed that too with the logo. I want to check it when I get a chance.


There have been murmurings from multiple members that the "gon" is about due for another paint job, It'll probably get done in the next year or two if things go smoothly. NYC would be nice but the majority may want to leave it as it is. The PC(originally NH) cupola caboose will most likely go back to PC colors too in the nearish future too.

I've thought about printing a small version of a logo from the computer onto clear plastic and projecting it onto the car, then tracing it onto the side... but I've never actually tried it. I thought about a 35mm slide sized image and a slide projector, but maybe a 8 1/2 x 11 and an overhead projector would work also. In either case, you have to make sure the projector is centered so you don't get a keystoned image.

After getting the logo traced on the car, you need to either mask and spray paint or get someone with a very steady hand, but at least the cost is minimal.

I'm pretty sure that the smaller NYC cigar band logos, including those on F unit noses and cabooses, were decals of some sort. Silkscreened vinyl, perhaps? That would explain the cracking that one poster reported.

One NYC touch I always liked was the herald-shaped steel plate that was attached to the end railings of switchers, with the logo affixed. Never managed to find one to bring home, though.

Walt Lankenau

I've actually done that before with a projector for painting a large University of Michigan "M". It should work on a caboose too I think. Just have to get it at the right height like you said.

Thanks, I hadn't thought of that.

Old thread I know, just keeping stuff in one spot.

What exact color is NYC green and where could I get it?

Awlgrip H4682 New York Central Century Green is a modern spec. It matches Munsell 2.5 BG 5/8.
Awlgrip H5750 is a dark blue used on the GMDH locomotives.
Edit: Awlgrip H5782 is GMDH light blue.
Awlgrip H9361 is our best take at South Shore Orange.
Awlgrip H7560 is our first swing at South Shore Burgundy which perfectly matches D&M Burgundy.

I've photographed railway stencil drawings in the past, and then projected the slide onto a wall, adjusting distance, squareness, level etc. so it was correct. I then copied the projected image to my stencil material, and finished up by hand- cutting the stencils.

it's a fair bit of work but gives excellent results.

However, these days much of that effort can be done electronically, still resulting in a file that allows cutting a nice stencil.

I'm a big fan of painted lettering too, except where the railways used decal lettering.

Steve Hunter