I visited the Knoxville Zoo this weekend for the first time in over 20 years. I remember as a child they had a fairly complex grand scale railroad with live steam much like the one at the Little Amerika Theme Park today. It seems this is no longer an attraction at the zoo.

Does anyone know what happened to their steam locomotives and equipment?

The locomotive, 4-4-2 #128, is alive and well at the Riverside & Great Northern Railway, Wisconsin Dells, WI. http://www.randgn.com/index.html Photo/history of #128 and other R&GN equipment at http://tinyurl.com/y5eds2x

Jim Tatum.

The track was "donated" to the Old Smoky choo choo "museum" and it is stored in their secret lair, rusting into oblivion like the rest of their equipment.

Locomotive #128, which rolled over sometime during the Knoxville Worlds Fair, later was at the zoo and now is back in a Wisconsin Dells garage being restored by a member of the Sandley preservation group. The 15" gauge railroad line is a miniature railroad museum - 501c3 and all.

http://www.randgn.com/

Another engine, "the bug" #125 was said to be in Knoxville too but it's whereabouts are unknown. I am not sure what happened to the Knoxville coaches. Is this museum you are referring to the Old Smoky chapter of the NRHS? Besides rail, what do they have?

Thanks for posting the link to the R&GN website. I'm really glad that something remains of the Sandley operation. Little Railways of the World was one of my favorite childhood books and I was probably the most frequent borrower of my local library's copy.

I remember riding right behind the locomotive at the Tennessee Valley Agricultural and Industrial Fair in 1981, I think. It was on the lower level track at Chilhowee Park which was right next to Southern 154 and ran around the lake.

As for Old Smoky, I'm not sure if they got the rail from the lower level or from the zoo. Knoxville had one of the better zoo train rides around from what I understand. Other than that, Old Smoky has a respectable collection of equipment, but no knowledge of what to do with it other than slapping an occasional coat of paint on it. It is stored at the former Southern Station in Knoxville. They also had title to Southern 154 which is now being restored by Pete Claussen's Knoxville & Holston River Railway. I'm not sure if the group still technically owns the engine and it's on permanent loan/lease or if they gave/sold it to Pete.

Old Smoky did indeed get the rail from the zoo train. If you call up the president he will go on and on about the day they went out to get the rail and the fun that was had by all. I have seen it with my own eyes.

OSRM equipment:
SR Pullman lightweight coach/dorm/baggage (South Carolina). Stripped inside, whenever it rains water comes through the open window and stands in the floor.
C&O Pullman lightweight coach(1850). Rebuilt by Amtrak with new sidesills and sidesheets. Phoney paint scheme...still has an awful rotting Amtrak interior. This could be a useful coach for somebody.
SP Pullman 12 bedroom sleeper. This car was ok when they got it...but has started to rust. Awful Amtrak interior.
SR RPO heavyweight. A nice car...I noticed that one of the windows is falling out the other day. I wonder if it will ever be fixed?
CofG ACF coach "Smoky Mountain Club"? Former MOW car fixed up as a meeting car with a movie screen and light switches. Pictures of choo choos on the walls. The window gaskets have started to fail and the side sheets are filling with water.
"Seminole" heavyweight PV. This car was junk when they paid too much for it years ago and has continued to fall apart. Water is pouring into the sides, the roof, the windows...just terrible.

And three cabeese. 2 SR, 1 N&W. All red. And they did indeed own the 154.

The C&O coach is 1650 and the work was done by the C&O, not Amtrak as I recall. They did several like this.

See photos in the passenger car photo index by Mr.Laboda. http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=683520

The 1650 is a great car with a lot of potential. It is indeed a shame that it sits in the condition it is in.

The office car was not in such bad shape when it was purchased and though it needed work, I would not say that they overpaid based on things at the time. Subsequent work has been substandard to say the least. Car has a neat configuration insofar as office cars go, with the dining room adjacent to the observation lounge. They were at one time separated by a wall that no longer exists.

As I said before, they have no idea what to do with the stuff they have and they manage to succeed time and again running away anyone who does or has interest in doing so.

There was never a wall between the dining room and observation lounge in the Seminole...the two were one. There was however an additional stateroom that was removed. There is a picture in "Mansions on Rails". It was not an office car but a private car, hence the "unusual" configuration. It was a very poor purchase. I think some of the people whom they "ran off" bought it.

The C&O coach was rebuilt by Amtrak. The picture you presented has rust along the sidesheet. Not illustrative of how this car would have operated in Amtrak service. Inspect it sometime. Too recent to be a C&O rebuild. Perhaps C&O rebuilt it too...but the most recent rebuild was by Amtrak.

So, aside from some 12 to 20 lb rail and otm, no other parts of the miniature railroad were saved by Old Smoky?

The future does not sound bright for those passenger cars in Kville, unless they get new landlords.

Old Smoker only got the rail which they piled up in the corner of a field on a local farm. I think that some of the railroad cars and parts were under kudzo around the perimeter of the zoo...maybe not anymore.

I suspect the Old Smokers cars will be cut up one day. The "members" are fewer then 5 now and in very, very poor health. And if you ask them about the future they will give you this narative about "we need members who will work and not members who will try to tell us what to do". If you do try to help it is constant criticism and accusations. They have no idea what it costs to get things done and unrealistic expectations about what the connecting railroad will not do for them. They last had the museum open in 2003 (I think).

So one day they will all go to Jesus and the landlord will stop getting his rent check so he will call the scrap dealer and that stuff will be cut up on the spot. Just my guess of course.

Does Tom Dixon know about this car, and would he be in a position to acquire it for C&O Tech? Looks like a perfect piece for them.



How many times have we heard similar stories about "preservation" groups?

Your assertion about Seminole is incorrect regarding the stateroom and the partition. I have held the very contract for it's construction and original drawings in my hands at Newberry and Illinois Ry Museum when many of the drawings were still in insulated boxcars. You are correct in that I mischaracterized it as an "office" car as it was indeed built as a private car for Mr. MacComber. It was later an office for REA and then Ontario Northland. Were you there when the car was purchased?

As for the C&O car, it is widely known that C&O did MAJOR rebuilds to a number of coaches, sleepers, and other cars in the very late 60's, possibly even as late as 1970. There is a sister coach at TVRM with the similar rebuilt sides. Further, having owned one of the fluted below the window C&O cars which did not receive the same type of rebuild (it had gone to MoP, then CNJ), I am very familiar with these cars. I am particularly acquainted with 1650 and its history with Old Smoky. Better example of these rebuilds: http://www.bcoolidge.com/Amtrak_71-75_Pix/JW%20Riley%20leaving%20Back%20Bay,%20Boston_02_72-c.jpg

Your assessment of the overall situation at Old Smoky is indeed correct - the president there, well I have nothing nice to say about him or the rest of crowd that should have been put to pasture 20+ years ago. Everytime there were signs of life, they always managed to stifle it within a couple of years. Two splinter groups would likely not have existed but for their incompetence and intransigence.

Best,
Mike

Your assertion about my assertion is incorreect.

But you seldom admit to being wrong about anything...do you?

T7

The Old Smoky chapter ran great steam excursions on the Southern/Norfolk Southern in both the spring and fall untill 1985,than they became very sporadic after that.I always wondered if they angered Norfolk Southern somehow since the steam train often deadheaded through Knoxville enroute to other cities.