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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:14 am 

Or you could just watch a film from back then and forget in trying to rebuild something that be never get done.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Conrail6370#play/uploads/12/noRCyFQIgrU

Enjoy,
Len.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:18 pm 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:35 pm
Posts: 419
Location: NJ
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
In the case of a GG1, there is ONLY ONE PLACE where she can be run to the satisfaction of the fans that want to see one run, and the people in control of that place (the NE Corridor) are adamantly opposed to the idea for good reason.


But those same fans won't be happy with that since the NE Corridor has concrete ties now. That in itself ruins the potential authentic, historic look if one were to stretch its legs on the corridor.

Back to reality,

When is the last time anyone moved a GG1? Probably the URHS move in NJ about a year ago over friendly rails. To the best of my knowledge the one up in Cooperstown, NY still sits at the junction waiting to go the The Henry Ford museum. Most small shortlines aren't going to want to run something this big. Its heavy and probably doesn't like tight curves.

Also with all the "genset" locomotives now being produced, could a genset be shoe-horned into the body of a GG1? Then there is no need for overhead wires and the unit could move itself, but probably not much more.

Leave 'em stuffed and mounted

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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:05 pm
Posts: 1134
Location: MA
We have parts getting made for steam locomotives heck even brand new boilers! Steam is a far gone technology but we still manage but electricity is here and now, the frame work is the best reason I have heard so far for the lack of running GG1's but hell forget all the relays and stuff KISS All you need to do is regulate power to the motors and and use separate circuity for the lights ex ex... (what are the specs for the motors anyway and could newer ones be used)


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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 9:18 am
Posts: 728
Location: Wall, NJ
Like I said, just running power to the motors is like running a steam engine on air. Its not the same thing. Besides, the guts are historic in their own right. If it can't be done right, then it should not be done at all. Although, I'm not thinking of hauling long freights or a long string of passenger cars. Just enough power to move itself and perhaps one or two coaches would be nice.

Quite a challenge.

J.R.


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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:58 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2611
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Suppose I need a set of wiring diagrams for a GG1. Where could I obtain those?


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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:58 pm 

Here is a web site you might need to rebuild an GG1.
Good luck.
Len.

http://members.localnet.com/~docsteve/railroad/gg1.htm


  
 
 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:09 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:42 pm
Posts: 124
cjvrr wrote:
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
Leave 'em stuffed and mounted


Frankly, I would be happy if they were stuff, mounted, and cared for from the inside out. I pretty much know that a GG1, or just about any other ancient heavy electric, will never run again. Too much resistance!

--
Will


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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:32 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:42 pm
Posts: 124
NH0401 wrote:
OK-lets see your design for a transformer. How many EE degrees are on your wall ?


Well, I could. Or many EEs that are not too entrenched in the digital age.

Really, this is 1930s transformer technology - hell, it is not even pre-rocket science.

If you want to design a big 25 Hz transformer, get a few period textbooks (available), read up on some Proceedings and/or other industry rags from the era (available), and maybe ask for some advice from the people that design transformers. Plug in the numbers, fiddle things a bit, then...done. Some of the old materials are no longer available, but they can be substituted with modern, better materials.

I live quite close to Hipotronics, and have seen their operation internally more than a few times. Yes, the transformers (and caps) are a bit exotic, but they are still essentially handmade using quite a few old school techniques, but with new materials. Seeing what they do, I firmly believe that one could make a replacement replica-ish GG1 transformer in a well stocked home machine shop.

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Will


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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:37 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:42 pm
Posts: 124
filmteknik wrote:
The transformer is a totally custom job: 25Hz with lots of windings and many taps. It's a question of money...lots of it.
...
Not a genuine restoration but just seeing one run under its own power at all would be quite a sight.


Maybe not as much money as one might think. I would bet that one could make a transformer using voluntary labor for under $20K.

But $15K might be hard to come up with, squeezing it in with that $500K budget for the steam loco restorations.

--
Will


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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:48 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:42 pm
Posts: 124
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
[The fans WILL NOT be satisfied with a GG1 creeping at 4 mph at Union, Rockhill, Branford, Wheaton, or any similar location.

Okay, maybe the test track at GE in Erie can accommodate her. And for what?

Take it from me, someone with part ownership in 100-mph British diesels: the fans and stakeholders WILL NOT BE CONTENT with any compromise on the order of a low-speed branch or demonstration track.


Are we so shallow that we can not appreciate that some electric technology from a bygone time has been restored and proven?

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Will, deeper than the paint


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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:54 am
Posts: 1043
Location: NJ
Funny how this topic seems to come up every three to six months, and gets pretty much the same answers- - -

As far as building a "replica-ish GG-1 transformer in a well stocked home machine shop", I don't think so. I've built transformers for a living. You would need a BIG lathe (or similar) to wind the coils on. Then you need a laminated core. Think coils of steel, cut and laid up. You need a case, regardless of your choice of air cooled or liquid cooled design. You need buss bars, preferably of copper.

Added 7/2: I forgot the insulating varnish tank, overhead crane and oven: bake, dip, bake.

And think of the voltage, 11K, or even higher, 25K if running north of Hew Haven, IIRC Who is going to design this x-fmr? Who is going to do any sort of safety certification on a home-made transformer? Where and how are you going to test it, before installation? This isn't rocket science, but it isn't 115 VAC, either. Think safety-

You may be better off building full-size steam locomotive boilers in the same home machine shop. As I said months ago, I grew up with the G motors, and would love to see one run again, but it is VERY unlikely to happen.


Last edited by EDM on Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:43 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:46 am
Posts: 2611
Location: S.F. Bay Area
EDM wrote:
As far as building a "replica-ish GG-1 transformer in a well stocked home machine shop", I don't think so. I've built transformers for a living. You would need a BIG lathe (or similar) to wind the coils on. Then you need a laminated core. Think coils of steel, cut and laid up. You need a case, regardless of your choice of air cooled or liquid cooled design. You need buss bars, preferably of copper.

Generally I applaud the "do it yourself on a shoestring" way of thinking.

But sometimes, the professionals' skill and facilities are so overwhelmingly better that they become the only way to go, regardless of the cost. Just have the transformer made by professionals. I know one, they're in Schenectady, NY.

Quote:
As I said months ago, I grew up with the G motors, and would love to see one run again, but it is VERY unlikely to happen.

Well, if you follow this forum, you know my opinion on that...


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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:55 am 

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:01 pm
Posts: 1755
Location: SouthEast Pennsylvania
cjvrr wrote:
When is the last time anyone moved a GG1? Probably the URHS move in NJ about a year ago over friendly rails.
How about East Strasburg to the District of Columbia and return 9 months ago via a shortline and a NorthEast Corridor owner? So, the excuse for actually running a GG-1 could be the bicentennial of Washington's Union Station!


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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:28 am 

Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:35 pm
Posts: 419
Location: NJ
JimBoylan wrote:
cjvrr wrote:
When is the last time anyone moved a GG1? Probably the URHS move in NJ about a year ago over friendly rails.
How about East Strasburg to the District of Columbia and return 9 months ago via a shortline and a NorthEast Corridor owner? So, the excuse for actually running a GG-1 could be the bicentennial of Washington's Union Station!


Jim,

I totally forgot that one, thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: GG1
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:53 pm 

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 102
Location: Middletown, Pennsylvania
It's not just a matter of replacing the transformers or using a substitute oil. PCB's migrate all over the locomotive, including areas occupied by the crew. Any outfit operating them would need to certify to the crew that they are safe to occupy. PCB can pass through the skin like water through a seive. EPA mandated museums cleanup of several of the GG1's they became aware of to the tune of over a hundred thousand dollars each. This is kind of like asbestos removal for steam locomotives. The G's had traces of the oil all over them and to make them safe they have to be cleaned down to bare metal, all internal and external surfaces wiped and tested and then the waste paint and rust would need to be analyzed and properly disposed in accordance with USEPA TOSCA regulations.

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