What have you been experiencing in your efforts to move equipment by rail - either on its own wheels or via flatcar from the railroads?

Are people/groups/museums interested in studying the costs associated in acquiring their own trucking platform and/or rig to move equipment?

Have some of you had good success in moving equipment either by rail or truck?

I am interested in hearing your recent experiences (in the past year of so).

Thanks -

Jim

The railroads aren't interested in this kind of traffic, period.

As for trucking, Pennsylvania Trolley Museum, on the basis of a number of very favorable experiences, suggests you speak with Silk Road Transport of Arkport, NY. They are the class act in the business.

Dave Hamley, PTM Mobile Equipment Manager

Jim,

I have moved three coaches on flat cars within the last couple of years with no problems. I have moved two steam locomotives by highway with no problems. I discussed some of my experiences in a recent thread: http://rypn.sunserver.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=27311

The rigging/trucking companies can function more as a general contractor would, arranging everything for you. With the railroads you have to do your homework, play by the rules, and coordinate everything yourself. Truck versus rail has to be examined on a case-by-case basis. As discussed in earlier threads, moving equipment on its own wheels is increasingly difficult but the railroads are happy to handle it when loaded on flat cars, provided that you obtain clearance approval in advance and secure in accordance with the AAR Open Top Loading Rules.

Alan Maples

The more I work in this area the more I'm convinced that the time and heartache that people spend trying to move equipment on its own wheels would be better spent developing facilities to efficiently flatcar-load and unload at their facilities. Circus-style 'ramp tracks' that allow push-on, pull-off onto flatcars (without cranes) can be done in many areas; the other alternative is reinforced pits/floors so that a car can be pushed under a unit suspended up on air jacks and I beams. Either way, what you have to spend on crane hire and rigging once can make a permanent feature at your site that can be used over and over.

What changed my mind was watching equipment that I considered either too big or too topheavy making the flatcar moves successfully; that includes the ex-Reading 2100-class 4-8-4 out to Tacoma as a flatcar load; the Chelatchie Western 2-8-2t's (great online photos of the ramp track construction), and recently the shipment of the James J. Hill 70' private car as a flatcar load. One of the beneficiaries of double-stack clearances and 286 loading is this ability on many routes.

We've worked with moving stuff in many different ways, none are easy or cheap. Silk Road is a class act for sure (and not the only answer); one of the ways you can help yourself is to get yourself on their list for potential backhauls if you are not in a hurry. It seems ludicrous that you can't move stuff on its own wheels, but you can either spend time arguing or just get on solving the problem at hand.

The other 'decision point' I see (particularly for passenger cars) is if you are going to move it on its own wheels, and actually use it when you get it, is to bite the bullet and do the necessary truck and bearing work. It permanently adds to the car value, it's a real determination point for valuation, and if the car is basically sound, worth it.

"The railroads aren't interested in this kind of traffic, period".

They aren’t interested in moving this type of equipment, but they will. I usually move a few passenger cars per year, mostly on their own wheels on Class 1 RR’s. For me, the biggest issue these days are the rates. The costs have escalated dramatically in the last 10 years or so, from $1.50 - $2.50 per mile to $5.00 - $9.00 per mile today, depending on the railroad and the distance traveled. The minimum charges can also be high – sometimes $2,000.00 to move just a few miles. As long as your car is mechanically sound, is roller bearing equipped, etc, I do not believe there is any advantage to moving on a flat car, as I believe the rates are not much lower, if at all. Plus, two cranes are normally required to lift a passenger car on to a flat car, and two cranes to lift off, and cranes are not cheap by any means.

When moving a passenger car on its own wheels, rough handling can still be a big problem. This is not new, and it’s just as much of an issue today as it was 30 years ago. Passenger cars still go over the hump sometimes, or worse, a heavy cut of cars will roll down the hump into your car. It’s always best to “bird-dog” the car with a chase vehicle, notifying personnel at terminals in advance of the cars’ arrival. However, taking the time required to follow the car in-transit is a luxury if you’re a one-man operation with a regular day job like most of us stiffs. The best option then is to constantly monitor the progress via car-tracing, and get on the phone if the car has sat anywhere for more than 24 hours. I have had consistently better handling from 2 of the Class 1’s, and have had repeated rough-handling issues with 2 other Class 1’s.

Moving an 85’ passenger car by highway is very expensive as well, but so far it’s still generally more costly than moving by rail. Often it’s not easy to find a heavy-haul outfit that has the correct dolly wheels for moving a long passenger car. Plus, you need one crane to lift the car to place it on the dolly wheels, and one crane to do the same thing at destination. And the trucks have to move on a separate flat bed truck. The only reason I have moved cars by highway is because the car was on isolated track and I had to get it back to live rail.

Other than the rate pricing, I have had surprisingly decent service from the Class 1’s in the last few years - from Customer Service via the various 800 numbers to the Mechanical Department personnel. I have never felt that I was being deliberately discouraged from moving my equipment. If you have people that know what is required to prep a car for a freight move – from AEI tags, UMLER registration, bearing lube, COT&S (or at least a Single Car Test) etc, you should be in good shape. And it really helps to have someone in your group that has had recent experience with moving cars in freight as it gives the Mechanical Department people a level of confidence that the car has been properly prepared and will not be bad-ordered en route to destination. Remember, there are few people left working on railroads today that have any experience with passenger cars, let alone the old clunkers that we are trying to move around the country. They will not likely know about UC and D22 brake valves. It is understandable, then, that you will often know more about your car than they do and they will feel much more comfortable if you walk them through what you have done, or even perform your SCT while they observe. I never recommend having a freight inspector come out to tell you what needs to be done before any work has been started. Have the car ready to move before calling the inspector to come out and take a look.

By the way... what's with the ubiquitous use of cranes for all railway lifting jobs? Have cribs and jacks gone out of production?

And yes, I agree with the notion of a circus ramp somewhere on your property; set it up right and it can double as a boxcar and semitrailer unloading ramp as well. Of course it might be better located near your rail interchange, so that heavyweight TTX flatcar does not need to traverse your creaky rails. "rail interchange"... sounds like a luxury in this day and age.

[quote="robertmacdowell"]By the way... what's with the ubiquitous use of cranes for all railway lifting jobs? Have cribs and jacks gone out of production?

If you happen to have cribs and jacks laying around and have all the time available to lift your equipment high enough to get it on a flat car or dolly wheels, then have at it. But more often than not these projects are done far away from one's home base, and you have to make do with what is available locally. Also, unless your crew is all retired, time is usually of the essence in order to get back to work on Monday morning. Cranes, while usually expensive, get the job done quick.

I have obtained quotes from house movers in the past, with the idea that their cribs and jacks would be cheaper than using cranes. In my experience, they have never come close to being competitive with crane costs. And the crane can also be used to lift and place the trucks on the highway trailer.

What about the idea the some of the rr museums and other pool their funds and jointly own the ramps and ramp trailer? In that way, there could be a cost savings?

Jim

If you are talking about railroad flat cars, the fundamental problem is that the equipment being transported usually must be removed from its trucks to comply with AAR loading rules for issues of vertical clearance, center of gravity, and load stability. While I have seen locomotives and railcars shipped with trucks intact on flat cars, such moves require advance engineering approval from the railroad mechanical department and special blocking and tie down arrangements. So roll-on, roll-off seldom works with the possible exception of steam locomotives, and many of those require depressed center flats for clearance reasons. Either way, you are back to dealing with cranes.

An organization such as TRAIN or ARM could be of help by maintaining a list of trucking/rigging contractors who have experience moving railroad equipment, as well as making accessible the AAR loading rules for flat cars and perhaps working with TTX to identify suitable flat car types and make diagrams readily available.

Owning your own flat car comes in handy when the railroads are running at capacity and equipment supply is tight, but all things considered, it probably isn't worth the cost or trouble, especially if you have long deadheads to position an empty car for loading. Likewise with trucking, unless you are routinely moving something relatively small, owning a trailer won't save you much if anything. You are paying the rigger for use of expensive specialized equipment that you can't afford to own, for their expertise, and for licenses, permits, etc.

Alan Maples

I was suggesting common ownership of a specialized over the highway trailer and ramps, along with a few people who know exactly how to tie it down, ....

Jim

And that went by without much comment. I'm glad you re-raised it, because I want to say for the record I think it's a GREAT idea.

When I said in the B&M thread "We need to do something very different", that would be a great example of that.

I don't begrudge anyone who wants to build a better mousetrap, but I think collective ownership of a specialized trailer would be unlikely to produce significant enough cost savings to justify the investment and hassle. There seems to be no shortage of commercial riggers and haulers who deal with oversize loads, and they have the equipment, the experience, the insurance (a big item), licenses, and knowledge of the arcane world of state permitting for moving big heavy things. Roll-on, roll-off is generally cheaper than crane lifts but is usually limited to smaller equipment that owing to vertical clearance issues. As the size and weight of what you are moving increases arithmetically, the cost and challenges increase exponentially. In my experience, you usually get what you pay for and attempts to do things on the cheap have produced bad results.

All that having been said, collective aid can sometimes be arranged informally. If you have something to move, look around and see who else may have done a similar job recently, or contemplating one. When I moved a small 2-6-0 I used the same trucker who hauls the Flagg Coal #75, after we figured my engine would fit - just barely - on his trailer. A major plus was the willingness of Barney Gramling to loan his rail ramp as part of the deal, and then use up a week of his vacation time giving us a hand. When I loaded out our 2-8-0 from Kane, PA, we investigated coordinating with others who were moving equipment from the same location, but logistics and timing issues didn't lend themselves to a collective effort.

Alan Maples

"Trolley Car Treasury", originally published about 1959, mentions that the New England trolley museums formerly cooperated with the ownership and/or operation of a highway trailer and tractor.

I recall seeing pictures of the "Highway Monster" as I believe it was called. It was a custom "ramp deck", for want of a better term, a beavertail with the whole deck inclined. It was nice, I'm sure, for smaller streetcars, but would be worthless for coaches or locomotives; the first because of the size, the later because of the weight.

Which simply brings up the point that no one piece of equipment would suffice for all moves, so what should be owned? The next problem is it needs to be kept current in both licensing and inspection. It also needs to be insured.

When all that is accomplished, you still need a tractor. Not just any old tractor will do, it needs to have sufficient weight capacity, and adequate ground clearance. It wouldn't hurt to have a self contained winch. What it does not need is a sleeper or cowling, both of which will be in the way.

One also needs a driver, and not just some tanker yanker who never ventures off the pavement and rarely backs up. There is something to be said for working with a driver who, when told to pull out and back in again TWO INCHES FURTHER LEFT, just does it.

There is no shortage in firms specializing in heavy haulage that have the equipment, skill, and expertise already on tap. The trick is just picking the firm which has the needed equipment.

One of the trucking firms in the New England area was operated by Richard Guerrera Sr., who collected TRUCKS (great fit, yes?). So at this point just let me mention the Golden Age of Trucking Museum in Middlebury, Connecticut. This is the museum that houses the collection of trucks that Mr. Guerrera spotting in his travels, purchased, and then hauled back to Connecticut with his own equipment.

This museum is a great place not only to see and learn about trucking, but also to get ideas for your own museums. It has a beautiful, carpeted display hall, with comfortable seating so us old curmudgeons have someplace to sit and relax while the grandkids look at all the displays. It also has a nice vending area next to a cutaway truck (don't try doing that to a piece of railroad equipment and mentioning it on RYPN), a childrens play area, a classic toy truck display room, a nice meeting facility, and a large gift shop. A great museum, and a great place to get lots of ideas.

http://www.goldenagetruckmuseum.com/