As a full time railroad employee, I have had no issues. That is why I don't discuss my bread and butter on line.

I have noticed several other sites that went to insisting on "real names" and just about ended the participation by current industry professions, but then maybe that is what some of them wanted anyway. Having people on board that lived the history or have direct access to accurate information can undermine the "standing" of some of the self appointed experts in a group.

MX

Seems like the discussions lately have been "RYPN Lite". Are you guys losing your enthusiasm, or is the recession taking its toll on everybody?

PCook

For what it is worth, watching Bob Yarger get run-off turned me off. The trade-off's made were not worth it IMHO. You can't lose a quality poster like him and expect things to be the same.

A lot of recent content, as PCook graciously called "RYPN Lite," is more oriented to Trainorders than RYPN. Ironically, Trainorders has been a better source for preservation news, especially steam news, the past few months. That's too bad.

One key ingredient that is common of many successful blogs and message boards are "owners" who actively promote the kind of content they want to see on the site by starting threads, adding valuable info, etc... I know that everyone has time issues, but an active ownership (active in terms of content, rather than mostly moderation) could help.

Rob

That observation about "owners" is an interesting one Rob. In my own case, my perspective on participation in internet discussions and authoring changed considerably when I took over as webmaster of an excellent website maintained by a very competent marine enthusiast group. The experiences there have resulted in a considerable reduction in my interest in internet authoring.

The internet is a vast "free theft" zone. Anything and everything of quality that you post there will be pirated, copied, and plaigarized. If you post something that is well done and has useful information, it will not just be picked up and reprinted, it will soon be reposted with other people claiming credit for your work, and eventually be sold by internet data services to unsuspecting individuals who do not know you originally posted it on a free access site. These people are even sleazier than a few of the current so-called "authors" who lift enormous "quotes" from other authors older articles in Trains and Railfan & Railroad (without permission and in violation of copyright) to fill space in their mass produced coffee table books. So if folks are enthusiastic and dedicated and they want to help out and offer lots of information, they should just be aware that anything and everything they post is going to be stolen and misused. Maybe that does not bother them, if that is the case, fine.

But going back to the discussion as it developed last year, anyone presently employed in the railroad industry has more to be concerned about than their name appearing in a discussion group comment. The internet has spawned a large following of "news groupies" whose response to obtaining any interesting tidbit is to immediately run to a computer and be the first to spread it all over the world. If you are a current railroad industry employee, this has really put a damper on what you can say in public or when doing a clinic or slide show for a group. An offhand comment overheard by someone in the audience can be all over the planet in a couple of hours. As a result most of the industry people that I know, now want nothing at all to do with presenting programs for railroad enthusiasts. No wonder the groups planning conventions and events around here are now crying for clinic and program presenters.

I look at these developments as not only being detrimental to the participation in RYPN, but also placing a damper on the participation of many people in events at historical society meetings and conventions.

PC

That's a very good point, and it applies to many industries and professions.

As one who has been vocal about "real names" in the past, I can honestly say that people who require anonymity because of the content of their posts seem to be way fewer in number than those who hide behind usernames while attacking others. It is the latter that has been my pet peeve with RYPN.

Got something of value to contribute but can't use your name? That's one thing.

Got mud to sling and want to hide behind an alias? That's another.

Rob

I think burnout, and just not having the time they used to have in the past (that's my problem), is also part of it. Many of us have been at this for 10+ years now.

I have heard more than one person lament this site has not been the same since Bob Yarger's departure and the blowup that almost shut it down. The folks on the original RYPN board hardly even post here anymore; I know of at least one other individual that used to contribute; but doesn't come here anymore. With so much stuff going to scrap in the past few years (in some cases despite spirited efforts by some to save it) has been discouraging as well.

I also agree that most forums (like most other non-profits) have that core group (or even individual) that contribute most of the content. When that individual or group stops contributing; the forum then becomes a shadow of it's former self; at least until someone new comes along to try to breathe new life into it.

But, with all that said, it is up to us to make this forum what it is. We start threads, contribute news articles, and post flimsies. If it all goes away, we are as much part of the problem as anyone else. And there are lots of positives preservation efforts out there to talk about; providing they are not shouted down by curmudgeons and their negative vibes.

What has turned me off about RYPN is the heavy handedness of the moderators. One cannot start a thread about Steamtown, 1361, 614, Altoona, Strasburg etc. without one of the moderators coming on stationg "I'll be watching" and making veiled threats to lock threads. Why invest one's time participating in discussions and making your opinions known when it will just result in another locked thread?

The departure of some good people, the smothering of the forum by the moderators, and the general burnout many people in the preservation movement feel are the three main reasons that RYPN is not living up to its potential.

This may be the answer to printing and distribution of a magazine with a small print run:

http://magcloud.com/

Of course, somebody has to edit, do the layout and...write the articles.

On a related note, does anyone have an idea what the 'majors',i.e. TRAINS and R&R pay for articles ?

DPK

One benefit to publishing in a magazine format is that your critics cannot reply in an instant. However, I think we also have seen how the discussion here has made issues morph, evolve, dissolve, and resolve all withing a short period of time. Kinda interesting, eh?

I think this is a healthy, active discussion group with good participation from many members of the North American (and even worldwide) preservation community. Sure it could use more articles. Sure it's not the same experience it was 6, 9, 12, 24, or 36 months ago. It's still one of the best places out there. I think it can get better if the newbies step up to the plate and add their 2 cents: Posts, Flimsies, Briefs, and what have you. So.... lets hear it!!!!

All the best,
O. Anderson

On the contrary, I feel that the moderators are doing a reasonable job concerning hot-button issues. There are two factors, though, that need to be considered when pursuing such "controversial" topics:

1) There really haven't been any major developments or changes that I know of concerning most of the "controversial" issues (the recent announcement concerning the EBT's new operating arrangement is an exception). Therefore, starting yet another blankety-blank round of "discussion" on 1361, for example, really adds nothing to the "discussion" and leaves open yet another opportunity for certain folks to argue (not actually debate, but just argue) the merits or lack thereof of government oversight of rail preservation, the merits or lack thereof of PRR design, or whatever. Now, if we were to discuss, for example, the pros and cons of the California State RR Museum, the Canadian Railway Museum, or the National Railway Museum (Green Bay or York), that would be at least "new" turf....

2) On a totally unregulated forum, one runs into the very real risk of topics spinning uncontrollably into alien turf. I can show you forums where a discussion on a comic book character or plot will spin inevitably into a gory "debate" on gun control or Social Security. I can show you forums where almost everything going wrong with the newspaper industry was formerly instantly blamed on the Bush 43 administration--and now, as sarcastic equal time by those who put up with it for years, on the Obama administration. It's said the death of Usenet was/is blamed on spam; I say that it can also be blamed on the inevitable hijacking of otherwise lucid threads by deranged political hotheads who would not hesitate to, for example, blame someone's guitar or bagpipe going out of tune or the failure of a zoo panda to get pregnant on "Bushitler".

I would like to think that we're far above that. But based on what I see elsewhere, I wouldn't trust anyone.

I particularly like the discussions (debates?) about Steamtown. They remind me of the baked beans scene in the movie "Blazing Saddles".

PC

I have to ask: why not start a forum then, that addresses your concerns? Moderated as you wish (or not moderated at all). Guidelines created by you? The cost would be miniscule (easily done for $65/year). Then you'd be able to guide things in the way that you advocate. I'm sure that it would be enormously popular with a few people.

The problem is, though, that you wouldn't have the audience that RyPN has, at least initially. What you'd like, if I understand it, is for RyPN to be run to suit you rather than in the way the current moderators (I'm not one of them) run it. But if your ideas are good, surely you'd quickly build a big audience.

Tell ya what: I even have a domain name I'll donate to the cause: railwaypreservation.org.

IMHO, RyPN is still one of the best places to exchange timely info on the railway preservation subject on the www.

I agree that the moderators here are far too prone to lock a thread rather than allow those with strong opinions to express same. Seems to me that constructive criticism, sharing of actual life lessons learned in this field ( perhaps as much or more the failures vs. the successes), and personally held beliefs are worthy and the tendency here is to cut-off a subject the instant it gets the least bit contentious. Seems to me that unless a thread gets personal vs. discussing facts and opinions it should be allowed to run its course.

My guess is that the main reason Trainorders.com continues to attract a larger and larger base ( most of whom pay for the privilege!!) and RyPN does not is the reluctance of many to take the time/energy to post anything that might be viewed as the least bit controversial knowing it may well be removed or locked??? I too have noticed that the Trainorders site has a substantialy greater tolerance for postings that speak to hot subjects, and they rarely if ever find it necessary to erase or lock.

Perhaps there's a lesson there???

Ross Rowland

Trainorders? Are you kidding me? I was on that site back years ago when it actually HAD people. Those discussion boards would turn several times a day and it had live chats that lasted all night.

Today it is a pathetic little shell of itself. Sure you don't see the hand of moderation, but that's because they just make stuff "vanish" - so you never see any disturbance. If you aren't quick enough to see it in the first 5 minutes its posted, you are too late. They have a never-ending supply of busybodies that are quick to hit the 'alert a moderator' button. Only people left on TO are railfans with more money then sense. Why someone would pay for the same crap that is available on the dozens of yahoo groups, here, or trains.com is beyond me.

THe minute Trainorders can't make a buck, the site will be gone. Ask the recently booted off heritage members with their so-called "lifetime memberships".

And to think if people took the time to actually write something of interest instead of just complaining, we'd have something. That could go for me - but who really cares about black and white dash-9s?