The Niles Canyon Railway + Golden Gate Railroad Museum team operated 4-6-2 S.P. 2472 and historic equipment on March 28-29, 2009. (We will repeat this schedule on May 23+25 and Sept 12-13.) The attached flyer has ticket prices etc. We bought 1/5-page color advertisements in several local weekly newpapers. We had good attendance. The photographer's special train (Saturday 8am-12 noon) sold out. First-class seating (parlor car and business car) was always full. The coaches and open-air cars on the "Family Trains" were reasonably full.

NCRy is unusual because it's a former S.P. mainline with 0.7%-1.0% grades, twisting through a scenic deep canyon (an emergency watershed preserve). Even non-railfans really enjoy the ride - it's relaxing, scenic, and a real "trip back in time" - completely different than life in suburbia. Riding the train in Niles Canyon, you'd never guess that we're surrounded by 5 million people (!) in the San Francisco Bay Area.

- Doug Debs

Thanks for the input everyone. If you haven't yet, please lemme know what you think. If you wanna vent, feel free. I was not involved in the pricing decisions and personally, I think the $20-25 dollar range is where we should be. But I just work there...

A fairly obvious answer would to charge a little bit more then it will cost to run, otherwise you will lose money.

Another fairly obvious answer would be to charge a bit more for the steam runs then you charge for the diesel. This would be due to the increase costs as well as the likelyhood that more people would be willing to pay a bit extra to ride behind steam.

So, how much?

Again, hopefully a bit more then the cost to run. Figure oiut what it will cost in manpower, fuel, overhead (liability costs, personel, ect.,) and maybe even wear and tear (fund). Divide that by expected ticket sales and you will have an idea where you will need to be. Too high? Run less trains with more people. Still too high, how about cab rides? How about all day passes (most people will ride only once anyway). Do you have premium service? First class cars? A caboose ride? How about a photographer's special run (a normal run but passengers can disembark to take photos along the line).

You may be able to charge more since it's an inaugural run but only the first weekend, though you may give a poor first impression if price is too high.

Like others have stated, I understand it's a short line and perhaps not the most scenic which will make it more difficult to price as high as some other lines. But, then again, it is a newly restored ATSF Pacific.

WMSR (long and scenic) Coach is $30. Club is $40. First Class is $55.
NKP #765 (Similar line?, big(ger) engine) $30.
Strasburg (Small line, but scenic) $20 or coach at $13.
Steamtown (long line, good speed and grades, large engine) $21.
New Hope (Medium size run) $15.
Wilmington and Western (Medium size run, scenic) $10. (Bargain)

Reading and Northern (a Pacific) - I think excursions run quite a bit more but they can be all day runs through very scenic areas. And only a few times a year.

You could likely charge a premium if you are going after a railfan market - those who will pay more not only because it's steam but because it's specifically an ATSF Pacific. You can get more dollars but less patrons on a regular basis.

Best of luck!

/Mitch Goldman

As stated Wilmington & Western is a good bargain...as they only charge $15 for a 2.5 hour, 20 mile round trip behind steam ($10 for a 10 mile 1.5 hour trip) in a highly senic area considering the surrounding population density. They are in a metro area with over 5 million potential customers (just the Wilmington/Philly Metro region, not including Maryland), much like Nyles Canyon....not to mention, they have 9-10 competing tourist railroads within a 3 hours drive of them (though most an hour or so away).

AB&SV is attempting to charge $45 for a 10 mile trip, in Abilene Kansas, who's population is just over 6,000 people? Total population of the state is just over 2.5 million people.

They (AB&SV) are NUTS!

You're right to say $25 (or less) is what it should be. The AB&SV has an ADVANTAGE
and they're going to blow it before they can even reap the benefits.

>I would say there are a few exceptions but that would be for trips like the
> Virginia & Truckee where they have added up to 15 or so miles to the trip.
> Even there I believe the price difference between steam and diesel is $2.


SUMMARY related to ticket prices: While the real Virginia and Truckee Railroad http://www.virginiatruckee.com/ charges roughly $8 or $10 depending on steam or diesel, that is only for the short run.

The government managed reconstruction project is a separate effort extending the tracks from Gold Hill to Carson City. The government commission is currently considering a ticket price of $45. It was originally planned at $15 or less when the budget was $20 million. Now that the budget is topping $65 million the price is going way up.

In this case, a tourist has to make a decision between paying the ticket price for the 2 hour (each way) trip vs. just driving to Virginia City in 20 minutes. I think it's a factor to be considered when pricing any tourist train to think that you are competing with alternative transportation methods. Sure, some people want to ride a train no matter how expensive, but they are in the minority. Most people make a cost and time decision, so the more your train runs to a popular destination, the more they make this choice.

THE LONG VERSION: Just to clarify, the privately owned Virginia and Truckee Railroad began as a dream in 1968 and began operations in 1976. It's now in it's 34th year of operation and gets no government subsidies. Originally the line ran about a mile from Virginia City, Nevada to Tunnel 4. In the 1990's, with help from members of the Gold Hill Historical Society, Tunnel 4 was opened and the line was extended to Gold Hill, bypassing Tunnel 3.

In a couple previous years the private V&T has been able to broker a track use agreement with the government commission to run a mile or two on the new tracks on the last run of the day. Last year the new tracks were extended extended through American Flat, Tunnel 2 and just to the edge of Mound House, Nevada. This year the tracks have been extended another five miles and a bridge has been placed over highway 50 at the edge of Carson City. The next phase will extend the tracks another mile or two to the eastern end of the Carson River Canyon. Once the final $20 million of funding is secured, it is hoped the project will be completed to the eastern end of Carson City, making roughly a 15 mile run from Gold Hill to "far-east" Carson City.

This year the negotations between the private Virginia and Truckee Railroad and the government commission stalemated when the commission wanted the V&T to pay all maintenance costs on the new tracks, just to run to Mound House once or twice a month. Excepting a track celebration in July or August, and possibly special runs, the private V&T will not be running on the new tracks at all (as of May, 2009).

It's unclear when this whole project will be done or what the ridership will be. In the case of bus tour companies, the entire four-hour round trip eats up too much of the day, so bus companies have indicated they want to drop their tourists at one end of the line and pick them up after a one-way trip.

I just want to clarify, I do a lot of critical and political coverage of the V&T Reconstruction project, I will spare you my biased opinions. If you want to see that go to renorailfans.com. I have recent updates focusing on the use of stimulus/ARRA funds at http://www.renorailfans.com/virginiatruckeeblog/

Jim Lohse
Train Arts
Reno, NV
http://www.livingsteam.com