At the RMNE we are currently in the midst of a extensive rehab of one of our ex-CN heavyweight coaches. We are in need of of some large diameter round head slotted. machine screws to simulate the existing rivets and are looking for anybody who might have information on suppliers who might stock large diameter machine screws. Specifically we need either 9/16 or 5/8 diameter screws with a length of 1 to 1 1/2" and with a head diameter of approx .900. Most of our sources only go as large 1/2". Any help would be greatly appreciated

Hal Reiser

We used button head cap screws on a project to replicate the rivets. They were an allen head instead of slotted, though. They were also available in the larger diameters and lengths. Like these from McMaster-Carr:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#91255a798/=154gps

A dab of caulk to fill in the hex and they look good.

John Bechtel
Rear of Bay #34, Bob Julian Roundhouse
Spencer, NC

Thanks John, but the problem is that the "buttonhead" shown on the McMaster web site is not just a "lower" round head, it's actually got the top shaved off flat. While this might be less conspicuous over the whole length of a car side, it would really stand out in shorter runs or "spot" repairs which these screws are needed for. We would also like to stay with the slotted head screws as that was the standard railroad repair technique. We will go the button head route only if all other options do not work out.

Hal R.
Location: DFS Bronx NY

http://www.portlandbolt.com/products/bolts/custom_heading.html will make bolts with special heads on customer orders. I don't know what quantities are needed to make this affordable. A button head with a square or hex drive holes would work nicely. There is unquestionably a market for this at other RR museums.

- Doug Debs

Hal,

Have you talked with the guys at Nutty Company in Derby? (head down rt 8, get off on Main St in Derby, head up Main into town, they are on the right, first building after you pass Home-less Despot (aka agent orange), next to the Ice cream shop (If it is still there and the same owner they made some good real ice cream).

Here is the Nutty Company's website: http://www.nutty.com/

Anytime I needed something non standard they seemed to know where to get it or who to send me to.

Let me know what you find, as we are currently changing out an amount of rivets as we restore the CVRy 4052 caboose, some of them will still be exposed after the sheathing is installed.

My idea was to use Button head torx (someone donated a few boxes a few years ago) or hex socket button head bolts and then lead fill and profile them round. Lead body fill is a good old technique from the early automotive restoration days to learn, if you don't know how to already. It yields better results over plastic body fillers, because you drive all the moisture out of the metal and the tinning creates a rust resistant chemical bonding agent between the steel and lead, not just a glue bond. Eastwoodco.com has both lead and lead-free kits and training videos. Best part, if the bolt loosens or needs changing, just pass a torch over the head and the fill melts out leaving the socket clean for the Allen key or Torx driver.

Regards,

Rich Cizik
MoW Foreman
Blacksmith Shop Co-Head
Ct Eastern RR Museum
Willimantic, Ct 06226
http://www.cteastrrmuseum.org

I didn't recall a flat spot on the bolts, so I went to the parts room to take a look. The "flat spot" that shows in the CAD drawing is where the allen wrench goes. The rest of the head is rounded.

I have tried to attach a photo of a repair that is a mix of rivets and button head bolts. Belt rail and above is all button head bolts, below the belt rail is rivets, except at the side sill. If you look real close, you can see a few button heads in amongst the rivets in locations we could not put a rivet. This was before we filled in the heads. When completed and painted, they are very difficult to pick out.

JohnB

I'm pretty sure I've seen them both ways - ground flat and rounded. I've never seen them that big, so I can't tell you where to look, but I think if you keep looking, you'll find some without having to resort to a flat-head screw.

Is the other side of the metal accessible? We actually used rivets except we welded them from the other side instead of heating and air hammering them the old fashioned way. They look great! Any store specializing in fasteners should be able to order some in if they don't have them in stock.

RE: CNR coach repairs at RMNE

There are some spots we will be using rivets, as both sides are accessible for that procedure. The round-head screws are being used in areas that are inaccessible from one side; that is why that method of repair was used originally by CNR. We are trying to match what is part of the "historic fabric" of the car (or at least historic repair techniques).

Nutty Company has only the recessed hex-round head cap screws, same as McMaster, etc.

By the way, another once-common fastener, the large-diameter, round-head Phillips screws used on thousands of EMD F and E-unit side battens, seems to be made of that same rare material that keeps popping up here on RyPN (unobtainum).

Howard P.
Button Head, CT

Hal,

I have used carriage bolts of various sizes to replicate the profile of rivets. I used them to replace the lower side sheets on a caboose. I did machine the square part off in a lathe, and then painted the bare metal. Very time consuming when you’re machining and painting 250 of them.
http://www.prrllc.com/images/N5-yellow-handrails-1.jpg

Looking for a better method and a little more strength, I found grade 5 carriage bolts and did not machine off the square part. Instead I chose to drill the hole a little bigger to accommodate the square part. This also helped provide a little more play when I was fitting the cured roof panels on a boxcar.
http://www.prrllc.com/images/X31a-roof-10.jpg

Whether using grade 3 or grade 5 carriage bolts, I think that having to fill slotted, Allen head, or Phillips round heads bolts could be time consuming and potentially lead to problems, depending on what you fill the bolt heads with.

I was able to get behind each panel to use a nut and a lock washer. And honestly the panel was welded by plug-welding and grinding smooth. The carriage bolt is cosmetic and merely going for a ride.

On two seam panels where I could not get behind the panel, I drilled my rivet hole, cut the carriage bolt head off, and welded it on from behind. Then I plug welded the panel on. I did this on the lower 18” of the center seam of the caboose. One rivet on the roof of the boxcar is not either a rivet or a carriage bolt – it is just a build up of weld and some careful shaping with a grinder and file!

I find the carriage bolt head replicates rivets pretty closely. You can judge for yourself by looking at the two pictures in the links above. However, I did buy some rivets to get even closer for the boxcar restoration and will install them by pushing them through the hole and welding from behind.

If you are looking for bolts I would recommend using these folks:
http://www.krsupply.com/bolts.html

Scott Kwiatkowski
Penny Railcar Restorations LLC
http://www.prrllc.com