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 Post subject: Re: Cross-sectioning a museum steam loco
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:25 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:46 am
Posts: 166
Ron Travis wrote:
Is it something similar though, where you are actually building the parts according to their physical dimensions?


Oh, yes, it most certainly is. When you render something in an animation program, it draws polygons, so if you build something in a CAD program, it has to be converted to polygons, with some degree of accuracy loss. By modeling it in an animation program to begin with, you can control every point and polygon on the model to (a) keep your polygon count to a minimum and (b) control the accuracy of the resulting model. You could easily take this model, turn it into a DXF file, and open it in AutoCAD. And you could take a DXF from AutoCAD and open it up in an animation program. But AutoCAD doesn't have the same kinds of tools for manipulating parts at the polygon level that an animation program does. It's just a different way to do it that gives me the kind of control I like and is more suited for virtual display.

Ron Travis wrote:
How did you obtain the dimensions and part details for the locomotive you have shown here? I seem to recall that you mentioned getting the drawing from the Railroad Gazette, but surely they did not provide all of the detail dimensions, did they?


Most of the locomotive diagrams in the old magazines, no, they didn't. I've got a small collection of them, and quite often they were a very general overview. However, this one engine in particular has a huge number of dimensions in multiple views. So many that in certain cases things were double-dimensioned (not something you're supposed to do, but they're accurate). I don't know why they did it so detailed with this one or how they got the drawings, but the sheer number of dimensions were part of the reason I decided to build this one.

Ron Travis wrote:
With regard to the prototype, here it has been referred to as a failed experiment. Is there clear documentation regarding the fate of this water-filled arch concept? Was it just a one-of-a-kind experiment, or was it produced and further developed to some extent?


That much, I do not know. I think this is the only one I've ever seen with it.

Ron Travis wrote:
Everybody recognizes the common railroad spike, but in the pre-1900 era, there must have been dozens of different designs in use, let alone the ones that were too radical to be applied.


This is kind of beside the point, but I've got a really great article from the early 1900's about the newfangled concept of tie plates. Absolutely fascinating, and made for interesting reading.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-sectioning a museum steam loco
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:14 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:02 am
Posts: 28
Location: South Central PA
It was bugging me that I saw this and several other lesser-known fireboxes somewhere. Then I remembered where: Grimshaw's Locoomtive Catechism, 1908 edition. Here is what Grimshaw says about the Buchanan firebox:

" It is used very largely on the NYC&HRRR, and its peculiarity consists principally in a water table, as shown in figs. 32 and 33, inclining from the back plate down to the tube-plate just below the bottom row of tubes, and dividing the box into an upper and lower compartment. Through it, there is a round opening about 18 inches in diameter, through which must pass all combustion gases, smoke, and air, the intention being to cause them to mingle before they strike the tubes. There are four tubes in the front end and four in the back, just above the fire, to supply air above the grate. Each has a conical nozzle through which may be passed a steam jet which will draw in an air current. "

Among other things, I wonder if 999 had this type of firebox when built, since both seem to be the creation of the same person, William Buchanan, master mechanic and superintendent of motive power at NYC's West Albany Shops.


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buchanan firebox.jpg
buchanan firebox.jpg [ 35.84 KiB | Viewed 5648 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Cross-sectioning a museum steam loco
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:29 am 

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:28 pm
Posts: 31
Regarding 999:

"It was drawn by World's Fair Engine No. 999, just built by the Central. This engine is an eight- wheel passenger locomotive. The drivers are four in number, 7 feet 2 inches in diameter, tire 3 1/2 inches thick by 5 3/4 inches wide, secured to cast-iron wheel centres by Mansell retaining rings—rigid wheel base 3 feet 6 inches, total wheel base 23 feet 11 inches. The engine truck wheels are 40 inches in diameter, cast-iron spoke centres, tires fastened by Mansell retaining rings, wheel base 6 feet 3 inches. The weight on the four driving-wheels loaded is 84,000 pounds, and on the engine truck 40,000 pounds. The boiler is of the wagon-top type, 58 inches in diameter, at the smallest ring, and has 268 flues two inches outside diameter, 12 feet long. The firebox is of the Buchanan type, with water arch, and is set on top of the frame 108 inches long by 40 7-8 inches wide. The total heating surface is 1,930 square feet, with a grate surface of 30 7-10 square feet. The smoke-box is extended and is fitted with a deflector and a perforated steel-plate spark-arrester. The stack is straight, 15 1/4 inches in diameter inside. The exhaust nozzles are double, 3 1/2 inches in diameter. The boiler is designed to carry 190 pounds pressure per square inch. The tender has a coal capacity of 6 3/4 tons, and carries 3,587 gallons of water. It is fitted with a water- scoop, and is carried on two four-wheeled trucks, each 4 feet 5 inches wheel base, with 40 inch cast-iron spoke wheels and steel tires, the tires secured by Mansell retaining rings. The weight loaded is 80,000 pounds, making the total weight of engine and tender 204,000 pounds. The engine, engine truck, and tender are fitted with the Westinghouse air brake, and the engine is equipped with the air signal whistle. This great locomotive, which will be exhibited at Chicago, made the remarkable speed of eighty-six and three-quarters miles an hour in an initial trip from New York to Buffalo."

~taken from the 1893 Photographic History of the World's Fair and Sketch of the City of Chicago: Also a Guide to the World's Fair and Chicago

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-sectioning a museum steam loco
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:15 pm 

Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm
Posts: 1543
Steve Zarick wrote:
It was bugging me that I saw this and several other lesser-known fireboxes somewhere. Then I remembered where: Grimshaw's Locoomtive Catechism, 1908 edition. Here is what Grimshaw says about the Buchanan firebox:

" It is used very largely on the NYC&HRRR, and its peculiarity consists principally in a water table, as shown in figs. 32 and 33, inclining from the back plate down to the tube-plate just below the bottom row of tubes, and dividing the box into an upper and lower compartment. Through it, there is a round opening about 18 inches in diameter, through which must pass all combustion gases, smoke, and air, the intention being to cause them to mingle before they strike the tubes. There are four tubes in the front end and four in the back, just above the fire, to supply air above the grate. Each has a conical nozzle through which may be passed a steam jet which will draw in an air current. "

Among other things, I wonder if 999 had this type of firebox when built, since both seem to be the creation of the same person, William Buchanan, master mechanic and superintendent of motive power at NYC's West Albany Shops.


Steve, Thanks for posting that information. I think I understand the water arch concept, but I am a little puzzled about this part from the description:

“There are four tubes in the front end and four in the back, just above the fire, to supply air above the grate. Each has a conical nozzle through which may be passed a steam jet which will draw in an air current."


I don’t see that in the drawing, and it would seem to be quite a unique feature in its own right, beyond the water arch concept. It says that the tubes will provide fresh air, but they actually introduce steam, which will draw in air apparently from some other source. Other than gas producing fireboxes, has there ever been a design (other than the reference in the above description) to jet steam into the firebox for any purpose?


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-sectioning a museum steam loco
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:19 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:45 am
Posts: 522
Location: Illinois
Ron Travis wrote:
I don’t see that in the drawing, and it would seem to be quite a unique feature in its own right, beyond the water arch concept. It says that the tubes will provide fresh air, but they actually introduce steam, which will draw in air apparently from some other source. Other than gas producing fireboxes, has there ever been a design (other than the reference in the above description) to jet steam into the firebox for any purpose?


I believe that "overfire jets" fit that description, they were used to help eliminate excess smoke.

Jeff

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 Post subject: Re: Cross-sectioning a museum steam loco
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:22 pm 
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Posts: 1130
Location: MA
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
And finally: If it meant that it would generate enough interest in preservation that you could succeed in preserving an F40PH in Massachusetts, would you be willing to let someone section out an Amtrak F40PH that would otherwise go to scrap?

A F40PH doesn't need to be sectioned a lot of the sides and roof section is made so it can be removed. If it had a busted prime mover then you could cut it up and remove the side of the F40 to show it.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-sectioning a museum steam loco
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:22 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:46 am
Posts: 166
That's interesting - the 4-4-0 I'm modeling appears to only have one of those openings on the back of the combustion chamber - right in the center. I haven't added it yet, but it does help to know a little more about it. But, no steam jets, just a pipe. It is a Buchanan firebox, and it's a NYC&HRR engine. I've got the number around here somewhere - don't know it right off hand, but I remember it was a two-digit number.

Speaking of which, I suppose I should post an update of it. Haven't spent a lot of time on it lately, but I've added the grates, and a bunch of the suspension and valve gear components.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-sectioning a museum steam loco
PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:24 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:46 am
Posts: 166
Sorry to double-post, but a couple more notes:

The opening between the two sections of the firebox are (on mine) not round, but oval-shaped (from memory, I think it was something like 17"x23") and the "extra air" pipe is roughly to scale with the drawing posted. It's much larger than the copper pipes appear to be in the PRR engine (thought I'd clarify that due to the comment noting the similarities between the two). Somewhat of the same concept, apparently, but not executed quite the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Cross-sectioning a museum steam loco
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:09 pm 

Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:46 am
Posts: 166
Been a while since I posted an update, so here you go. Valve gear's just about complete on the NYC&HRR 4-4-0:

Attachment:
Shot 4_54 (for web).jpg
Shot 4_54 (for web).jpg [ 29.5 KiB | Viewed 5189 times ]


And, I figured as long as I'm posting about the 4-4-0, I'd post a shot of this other one I've been picking away at:

Attachment:
Scene 2_6 for web.jpg
Scene 2_6 for web.jpg [ 38.19 KiB | Viewed 5189 times ]


It's a Michigan Central Consolidation, modeled from an old blueprint. It's not cross-sectionable though, due to the fact that the source blueprint is not detailed enough. I could do a rough guesstimate of the inside, but it just wouldn't be accurate, so I left it as an external shell. There are still a few details missing, but I think I'm just about ready to call her finished.

Anyway, that's all for now!


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