P.S. being a fan of all things CNR I also happen to have a soft spot for those poor GTW 0-8-0's!

Actually, one of twenty "Merchant Navy" and eleven basically identical "Battle of Britain" Bullied Pacifics.

If ever a steam loco were plentiful enough to be sectioned, this was it.

[quote="Alexander D. Mitchell IV"]

Actually, one of twenty "Merchant Navy" and eleven basically identical "Battle of Britain" Bullied Pacifics. If ever a steam loco were plentiful enough to be sectioned, this was it.[/quote]

Sandy, there are precisely ten "Merchant Navies" left. But since there were only thirty of them built, your second statement is nevertheless very true. Also, let's not forget that "Ellerman Lines" was obtained from Barry scrapyard precisely for the purpose of sectioning, and for all anyone knew at that time, it would have been cut up otherwise. Moreover, the NRM already had "Winston Churchill," a basically identical "Battle of Britain," in complete ex-BR condition.

[quote="Kevin Gillespie"]
I for one felt a feeling of nausea when I saw Ellerman Lines at the National Railway Museum 10 years ago. It is the only Merchant Navy class I have ever seen. [/quote]

Would scrapping it altogether have been preferable? You may be interested to know that even though 4 or 5 others have been restored to operation, the remainder exist today more or less as a "boiler and frame on wheels" only, and I believe at least one ("Holland-America Line," perhaps?) is currently giving up its boiler to keep another example running. These locomotives are far too big for most preserved lines and the mainline can only support so many, so several of the remaining hulks seem destined to eventual fates some may consider worse than being sectioned and put inside a nice warm museum. But given the current 33% survival rate for this class, there's some way to go before anyone has to feel TOO nauseous ...

- GJC

The mention of the Bodyworks display made me realize why I find these disturbing--beacuse I also found the bodyworks display disturbing. There was something "voyaristic" about the displays. Even my wife, who is a CNA, while facinated with being able to view the human structure, felt that it was in some way disrespectful of the people who used to be those bodies. I know, steam engines are not "living beings" but they are the documentation of our past, and how things were made in the past. Sectioning can be done to mock-ups that can be made of other materials to look like the 'real thing.' A locomotive we think that can't be rebuilt today, might be in the future, or might be needed as a complete display in the future. First, do no permanent damage!
S'
David D.

A good candidate for sectioning an American engine would be something like the engines in Roanoke. I would say that such a project would be o.k. with engines like those, incomplete and pretty well stripped. In some cases couldn't it be logical to create such a display from an engine thats pretty well shot and stripped specifically for that purpose, it could be cheaper and more cost effective than fully restoring them to operation. Didn't one of the British groups do something similar with and incomplete engine, or was it displayed as "an engine under repair" either type of display is cool if done right.

If a greater number of highly knowledgable steam enthusiasts were to make their time and experience available to their local museums as guides and clinic presenters perhaps there would be much less need for making alterations to display locomotives to explain the functioning of their machinery to the public.

PC

The sectioned locomotive is a very instructive and educational display, and perhaps one of the Roanoke engines might be used. My objection is when a locomotive which might one day be a viable restoration candidate is sectioned. The Merchant Navy Pacific in York, England, is a case in point. While others of the class exist, this locomotive was a reasonable candidate for complete preservation. That being said, the manner in which the NRM prepped it for public display is a model for other such exhibits. Not only is it painted, it is motorized and shows all the characteristics of "live steam".

The advantage of displaying a Diesel,is the relative ease of removing doors and carbody panels. The FA1 at the ExpoRail in Montreal is a beautiful exhibit, one may walk through from rear door to cab. It is impeccably clean, too.

Greetings:
Oddly enough, a GTW 0-8-0 was my first choice for sectionalization, but I was unable to make a "deal" with "Honest Nick".
In retrospect, the correct locomotive was chosen. There are few fireboxes/boilers in worse condition than No. 8.
J.David

I think that a diesel should ALSO be cross-sectioned. The Swiss did like 3 or 4 electrics of various eras, but they have been primarily electric for 80 years, and we've been primarily steam and diesel. So, we should do a cross-section of a SIGNIFICANT diesel, something common and significant. So, I nominate an EMD 40 series locomotive, probably an SD 40 - big, impressive and probably the most successful diesel-electric locomotive of the first 50 years of dieselization. There are plenty of them, take one that has been pretty well bastardized with various rebuilds, from a carrier that had plenty of them and cut it open on one side, don't just remove panels. I really think seeing the guts of a 645 prime mover, and how the trucks and motors are put together would be interesting as well.

Then you take both the steam loco and the diesel, display them prominently behind a glass wall, lit at night, with a well-lit and accessible pit under each, and I think you've got a first-class display, every bit as impressive as looking through the window of the Smithsonian American History building at SR 1401. I have to say, that although Steamtown did a nice job of sectioning No. 8, it really is in a cramped place.

Look, at least one of those 12 C&O Kanawhas was in really bad shape 30 years ago when it was displayed at the Cleveland Zoo (2705, I think), and probably is no candidate for return to operation. I can think of fewer things short of a big engine thundering by at 70 mph that would be more impressive to the public than seeing it opened up, brightly color-coded and motorized, with an appropriate accompanying soundtrack in a well-designed and lit space. We're not talking about living beings here. I too have ethical problems with the Bodyworks display, but this doesn't come anywhere close to a human-rights violation.

We are dealing with industrial artifacts that, for the most part, have passed their useful operating lives. We are also dealing with an environment where we are losing the interest of a generation to incredibly sophisticated entertainment options. I'm failing miserably in interesting members of my own family in any of this stuff, and I'm just saying that we need something eye-popping to get a "wow" out of today's "tweens" at a museum. The number of those interested in this stuff at a serious level doesn't come anywhere near paying the mortgage on the new addition to your museum, and things like this and Thomas Days keep the doors open.

EMD did this numerous times with diesels, including cross sectioned engines inside open sided F-units, lit with spotlights, with all the systems and components color coded and labeled to show their functions. See Railfan & Railroad magazine July 2008 bottom of page 45 for a photo of one of the units.

The conversion to a display locomotive did not preclude the later re-conversion to a working locomotive. Their special event display locomotives were generally rebuilt to functional units after their season on tour, and sold to customers.

I agree with Paul's posting above, it is the public that brings in the revenue, not the fans that show up in the parking lot, take a couple pictures, leave without buying anything, and then run to their computers to complain about everything they think was wrong with the scene. These kind of displays definitely attract their attention. There exist a number of photos of the EMD cutaways at public events with very long lines of people waiting to see the locomotive.

PC

I just visited Steamtown and IMHO as a teaching tool aimed at the general public the sectioned loco. there is an excellent piece.

Seeing all the interrelated parts of the entire machine and how they together produce steam and thus motion is invaluable especially to someone with little or no beginning knowledge. Seems to me that any museum that can afford the effort will find it to be an excellent investment. There's certainly plenty of derelict candidates that have zero chance of ever again boiling water that can be used.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

[quote="PaulWWoodring We're not talking about living beings here. I too have ethical problems with the Bodyworks display, but this doesn't come anywhere close to a human-rights violation. (end quote)

The living beings departed those blobs of protoplasm well before they were (with permission) recycled as very evocative and thought provoking interpretive artifacts. I can't imagine a better example of a museum display doing what they all should aim to do - emotionally and intellectually involve virtually every living human given an opportunity to experience it. It could spark a life's work in biological science or medicine for many young visitors.

The only ethical issue might be based on belief systems - which, if it offends yours, please do not purchase an admission and attend. Don't see the mummies either, or the catacombs of Rome, or the relics in the cathedrals.........

As far as I'm concened, the more I deal with my continually less esthetic and more uncooperative body, the less I care for it, and when I do leave it I want it scrapped out for any useful recyclable parts that could help anybody out and I don't really care what happens to whatever useless bits are left over. Alferd Packer Memorial Barbecue, anyone?

(quote again:) We are dealing with industrial artifacts that, for the most part, have passed their useful operating lives. We are also dealing with an environment where we are losing the interest of a generation to incredibly sophisticated entertainment options. I'm failing miserably in interesting members of my own family in any of this stuff, and I'm just saying that we need something eye-popping to get a "wow" out of today's "tweens" at a museum. The number of those interested in this stuff at a serious level doesn't come anywhere near paying the mortgage on the new addition to your museum, and things like this and Thomas Days keep the doors open.[/quote]

Very agreed - but on one count. The entertainment options are technologically sophisticated, but tend towards rather shallow, broad content. If we can develop deep, shaded, meaningful, sophisticated content and present it in technologically sophisticated ways, might it not be more evocative, satisfying, and profitable?

There's a really cool cutaway Birney car in Scranton. The thing I like least about the cutaway steamer in Scranton is it is one of the few I can barely remember running as an infant (perhaps I only think I can) by squinting and pressing my hands tightly to my temples, as a series of visceral sensory bits such as noise, smells, etc. Emotional BS, but still personal impact.

I also saw the examples in Europe many years ago and found them fascinating - but there was still a bit of steam in revenue service over there then (early '70's) and scraplines visible from the trains I rode, and I simply assumed there was a lot left to choose from for preservation, and no doubt rational choices for sectioning were made. I'm more offended by really bad work being done on some "restorations" than by a good job of sectioning or dissection for display of disposable rusty iron that might help intrigue people.

dave

As has been mentioned there are a lot of these in European railway museums, York in Britain, Mulhouse in France, Lucerne in Switzerland, Berlin in Germany and probably others. I remember walking around York with Bill Purdie and his first wife in the mid 1980s as he used theirs to explain to her how steam locos worked, and much was far easier to explain when you could see what he was talking about for yourself. Some sort of narration is really needed to make the most of such an exhibit. Today this is possible using cell phone technology, having a number you can call for yourself and listen as you explore the engine. Think of several museums with a locomotive over a pit so one can walk beneath it. If you don't have some explanation most visitors won't learn a thing because nothing is being explained, described, etc. We can debate the "ethics" of a sectioned engine endlessly, but think of this from the visitor's point of view and what will make the place worth visiting again. The Museum of Transportation in St. Louis has a sectioned diesel, a UP U28C, which is the only surviving example. Before anyone gets excited, the sectioning was done by UP, which used it to help train mechanics until it got to be too out of date for that purpose. They removed the hoods, sectioned the air compressor and a few other components, and took some parts off the engine block. Fortunately they donated it instead of sending it for scrap. It makes a great way to explain how a diesel-electric works to visitors. Does anyone else have something like it?

The living beings departed those blobs of protoplasm well before they were (with permission) recycled as very evocative and thought provoking interpretive artifacts.
dave[/quote]

I'll admit I wasn't clear on the history of how the bodies came to be in the exhibit and thought that perhaps, given China's human right's record, they were executed prisoners. Enough of the OT explanation.

I personally think that a bit more might be read into the original posting.

While the spotlight has been put on discussions of cross sectioning anywhere from one to several types of locomotives, I beleive that there is also an underlying premise here that many museum operations come up short in offering interperative displays that either put their equipment into context or explain to the layman visitor it's functionality.

How often do we see a museum that consists of a number of pieces of equipment (regardless of condition) and not much more ? Even those operations that are able to offer rides on their equipment, does this really put the equipment into the proper context of telling the history of the railroad, equipment, times, etc ?

I'm reminded of an event that was staged at IRM last summer. They had some re-enactments of catching mail on the fly from an RPO car. Now while this clearly can't be demonstrated at every museum, how many places have an RPO car, with the requisite hook, that is either unexplained or left to the imagination ? This is something that can be demonstrated very graphically with a similar re-enactment, or explained simply using photographs, detailed models,etc. (Plus a display works full time during the museum's "open" hours, without need for a docent or guide to explain)

Many of us have heard the self-proclaimed "Trainshed Cyclopedia's" spewing nonsense explanations of what something is to their grandchildren, spouse, or anyone else unfortunate to be within earshot. These boards have seen many recountings of these overheard conversations. (My personal favorite, the gentleman explaining that the pantographs on a GG-1 were used for icicle removal in tunnels) Is it not part of the museum's "job" to teach, as well as display, thus helping to eliminate at least some of this mis-information ?

I note of course that the overwhelming majority of operations are volunteer based, with limited funding. I myself would vote for equipment shelter before a funding a "museum" building. But isn't there also a need to find some balance to explain what all these railroad cars are, why they are important, what they meant to building a nation ? Given the number of hours, costs involved, aren't a handful of displays (photos, videos, written explanations, models, etc) a wise and easily argued investment compared to restoration of any given piece of equipment ?