I'm going to take AC's post from above and spin it in a positive way. When someone, even me, gets "shouted down" in a forum for having a different viewpoint, it also means that the forum actually has a "voice." It speaks for something that it stands for... and sometimes against.

This voice can be used as a bridge to the outside community. How many times have we, early on, thrown down a book or magazine because it was written in "code" that we couldn't easily decipher? I believe that the voice of RYPN has been discussing the subject of industrial preservation long enough to actually translate this code of the in-crowd for the average Joe to understand why what we are doing is important. Perhaps he will realize that it stands for something greater than us, and is not just a big expensive toy.

One of the many problems in historic/industrial preservation is using our dollars and other resources in promotion of our projects. I have seen many useless flyers, brochures and ads that use insider code instead of common language, missing simple points such as dates, times, proper telephone numbers, cities and states (and nations) for some big event or project is taking place. If RYPN can help these projects somehow to 'break the code' they can all fare better.

The problem of ineffective promotion of activities is rampant in this hobby/industry. Some organizations do not seem to be able to project information about their upcoming events beyond their immediate circle of members. Others run so late in getting notices up on their websites that it is impossible to use them for planning purposes.

For those who may wonder, there is NOT a shortage of people in the general public who are interested in railroading. A year or so ago I did a program for the speakers series at a public library in a small town. The event was ONLY sponsored by the library, no museums, tourist operators, or historical groups were involved in planning or promoting it. We had an excellent turnout.

How did they do this? They posted a promotional notice (an ad actually) in the local newspaper and they made up nice informative flyers that plainly but accurately described the program and distributed them through restaurants and a hobby shop.

The audience was very interesting. Aside from a couple of friends from museums who dropped by, there were primarily two groups that wanted to see the program. One was local people who just wanted to learn more about railroads and locomotives, they were a typical cross section of the population. The other was professional railroaders who heard about the program through the "grapevine" and wanted to see the program in a place where they could do so without having to endure the "stuff" (as they put it) that goes on at railfan events. Almost all the railroad people came up and introduced themselves to me at the conclusion of the program so I found out who they were. Some of them commented that they had at one time or another dropped by meetings of railroad enthusiast groups and not been very impressed by what went on there. Seems to me that there is a message in that for anyone who wants to pay attention to it.

RYPN might be able to help with promotion and even with explaining and sharing information on how to promote events effectively. Solving the image problem tends to require a much more local effort.

PC

For better classified ads, how about aligning / combining with a website like Railswap.org? They offer free posting to help preserve older railroad equipment.

http://www.railswap.org/

What about advertising the RyPN website to as many historical societies, excursion operators and museums as possible? Seems most here found the site by word of mouth (like me). Perhaps an ad in Trains, Railfan & Railroad, one of the trade magazines like Progressive Railroading etc. may get more people involved in posting to the site everything from articles, available equipment, and or expertise.

Another website forum I frequent is Railroad.net. They went through similar growing pains a few years ago and split the discussion groups from a general forum to much more specialized forums. While it does help one navigate to the info you want quickly, it also reduced the time I spent in browsing topics I had no specific interest in but may have found worthwhile.

Chris

The subject of directions and growth are for RYPN as perplexing as any other business. You can be paralyzed trying to figure out what makes sense and how to get there. Many good suggestions have been made, and I will throw in a few, with as little fluff as possible.

First, keep it digital. Even if there was an outpouring of support for a magazine format, stay digital. It has the largest possible audience and reach, should live on in perpetuity, be the lowest cost, provide better search options than a table of contents or index, and probably many more benefits than I can think of.

Within that vein, I think the concept of “printable view” would be of use to everyone, no matter what piece of content is being requested, but especially interchange threads. However, while some are already copying things out to print or save, there should probably be some “arrangement”, watermark, copyright, or something added to printing that credits and protects writers/posters from misuses, out of context quotes, etc. How this can be facilitated is, unfortunately, beyond me to detail.

As far as articles, one thing that might be nice to know, is on a percentage basis, how many registered users are in this business, versus not. The reason I mention it, is that I would enjoy writing an article. However, my day job as a programmer gets 100% in the way of my passion for the subject matter here, and English is nearly a second language. While I volunteer/participate on weekends, I lack the knowledge and experience I think is needed to provide a respectable article. I wonder how may other readers of RYPN are in the same situation, which may partly explain the light density of available articles. And when you are not living the life of a researcher/writer, or a railroad intensive job, it becomes more difficult to produce articles. Maybe a topic on writing, a list of pertinent subjects, or a list of anyone who would critique a potential article before submission would produce additional results.

The subject of search/filter topics have been mentioned, and while I do not know the methods in use, today’s hot parameter is tagging, like wikipedia. If it was a characteristic that could be added, either by the poster as entering their content, or on a batch build at 2am, it might make any object, subject, etc found more easily by searches. Especially if categories were added for say historical subjects, on-going or current events/projects. And in concert with searches, things should have a “shelf life”, like classifieds, so they move from the forefront to a more archived position over time. It’s somewhat wasteful to have an interchange thread from 2005 pop to the front of the list with a less than timely additional post. The search could always find these as needed.

In addition, would anyone like to see the goals of identifying and documenting documents, rolling stock, or structures as databases within RYPN? It seems part of its purpose, and would require some standardized format, as well as input from members. While I can’t tell you what’s in the warehouse too easily, I’m sure a roster of my museums’ rolling stock would be possible. I can’t say this is the way to go, but it might provide insight into what is out there to both the preservationists and the public.

Well there you go, some additional grist for the mill so to speak. Of course, opinions, mistakes, etc are my own.
Mike O.
TVRAIL

Mike - your English is better than that of many natives of North Georgia. I'm not too far away from you, and would be pleased to assist you in pulling your drafts together if necessary. Same goes for any others out there with good stories to tell.

dave

Dave -

I agree. A lot of people like Mike are afraid to submit something because they aren't experts. So what! If it worked for you. If it got the job done. Submit it! Sure, maybe the are better ways. Or easier ways. Or more permanent ways. But just maybe, your way is the BEST way! The rest of us won't know until you tell us!

Les

Don't take those numbers too seriously. Though you make a really good point that we should be using the Internet and Web 2.0 to educate and evangelize railway preservation.

I analyze web-search metrics for a living. For one thing, hit count is a very unstable metric. Add or remove quotations, it changes dramatically. What if some tourist railway copies an encyclopedia on their site? Suddenly "tourist railway" gains a million hits. Or web spam (keyword loaded garbage pages) -- does Google's number include or exclude spam? What if some spam got by their filter this week? Arrrgh, it's hard to even compare Yahoo vs. Google on that, let alone Google vs. actual reality.

For another, you're fighting a generational social bias of which you are all too familiar. Notably around who creates content on the Web! Having a DSL connection doesn't make you a content author, and the people who sit down and create websites and blogs tend to be younger. Look at the 20something fellow who runs 2 blogs about VMT.

How severe is that cultural bias? Just look at Wikipedia - there was no Wikipedia article for Shipyard Railway nor Southern Michigan Railroad til I created them, and still none for PRR 1361 or the Lost Engines of Roanoke. Yet there is a Wikipedia article for Demona (minor character in obscure, short-lived 80's cartoon) and Azshara (a place inside the computer game "World of Warcraft", which won't even exist in 10 years) and every episode of the TV series "Angel" (but not Matlock). Talk about lost in a fantasy world!

If we were keeping up, there'd be a Wikipedia article for SN 1005 and each major component of PRR 1361 with painstaking detail about every exact issue. There'd be a photo gallery on Flickr for every piece of historic equipment in the world, preserved or not. At least 1/5 of railway museum volunteers would blog about railway preservation. (a blog is a "web-log" or journal, a very easy way to publish and discuss web content.) There would be several decent rail related podcasts, at least one dedicated to electric traction preservation. That's what "Web 2.0" would look like if we fully participated, and that would be a wonderful thing because it would tend to hook in people who have not yet taken an interest in railway preservation, and it would greatly expand awareness and the interchange of ideas.

Of course that requires a shift in thinking about the nature of information. Right now I find railway preservation folks tend to hoard and restrict information. On a mailing list I needed an old manual, as did a dozen other folks; someone had it on PDF, but refused to share it openly. That mentality doesn't really make sense in a world where information copies freely and collaboration is easy.

So, you ask how to improve RyPN -- I'm not sure that's what needs improving. Expanding the readership's web 2.0 skills would have far greater social impact, I think.

I think that another major issue for RYPN and for the preservation community in general is the challenge of maintaining some relevance to the current generation of active railroad employees, whether they work for regional railroads, class ones, or the fast growing commuter rail segment. This is an enormous pool of skilled people who have the ability to help, if you can reach out to them in an intelligent and relevant way that makes use of their skills and experience rather than just trying to force them to adopt your interests. I work regularly with these folks, and they are increasingly telling me that they don't see much that appeals to them in the railroad history and preservation communities. Worse still, many of them who have made an effort to look into railfan activities are turned off by the lack of professionalism and circus environment that is allowed to persist in some groups. So there is a big chasm between current industry professionals and the preservation community, and unfortunately it appears to be growing wider. Curiously, many of the industry people have chosen to become model railroaders rather than railfans, and that is driving the model railroad hobby toward more technical interests, particularly with regard to diesel locomotives. Since the industry group that are modelers tend to be about twenty years younger on average that the people showing up for most railroad historical society meetings, they will have an influence on the organizations where they are members that will extend far into the future.

Over the last few years the vast majority of requests I received for technical presentations relating to locomotives came from the NMRA (National Model Railroad Association) and their divisions, and from local model railroad clubs. These substantially outnumbered the requests from museums and railroad historical groups. The program coordinator for one local model railroad group is an engineer in commuter rail, and one of the people who frequently helps him plan events is the local FRA representative!

Once again, there is something you can learn from this if you are interested in doing so.

PC

Mike O. makes a good point about a possible addition to RyPN's "mission". I mentioned in the current thread on Diner Restorations about a now-disappeared "Survivors" list on the ACLSAL Historical Society web site. There had been many entries made, and new additions were constantly being made for passenger and freight equipment, steam and diesel locos. There was a form you filled out for the details (railroad, class of car or loco, date built, etc.). You input what you could. Some people did more research that others, so you had a range from detailed entries to "don't-know-anything-about-it-but-I-saw-it-in...) It was an open-access list, and apparently someone(s) started inserting inappropriate or at best, badly incorrect information. In short, it became a problem and the webmaster opted to remove it.

RyPN would be a great place for begin a database of equipment stored/exhibited/restored at all of the museums or tourist railroads around the country (and internationally, for that matter). Privately owned (individually owned) equipment could be added as well. I have a spreadsheet of the SERM collection from a couple of years ago. I'm guessing this is the museum Mike refers to as "my museum" since he is in "N. Georgia". I'm sure others have similar database info for collections elsewhere.

Is this something that is doable here? Would museums like MOT, CSRM, RRMPA, SCRRM, SERM, TVRM, the Nevada Northern, etc. (just to pick a few who have representative posters here) or the multitude of tourist railroad operations be willing to contribute to a master database of preserved (or held) railroad equipment? With photos, perhaps?

There already is a "Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars" list at http://www.bera.org/pnaerc.html. Perhaps it can be used as a model for creating databases in other categories of equipment.

Posting pictures directly to this site would be the best change if you were to only make one change. IMHO.

I

Robert raises some interesting points. I think a lot of the stuff we would like to get out of an expanded RYPN could be created independently. It is perhaps more important that the participants in the world of railway preservation create content and share it through the web. The state of the railway-related Wikipedia articles is kinda sad. I have spent a little bit of time adding to articles I know something about.

I also established a Flickr group dedicated to railway preservation Here. I think it would be great if more people from this board posted images to it. If the images are appropriately tagged, it will be possible to search the database for photos of specific pieces of equipment. It is also possible to post those photos into messages here.

Photo by Thomas Merton:


Photo by Erik Ledbetter:


Hmmh, I had tried to format these so clicking on the photo would take you to the photo's page, but I was unsuccessful.

Randolph,

No need to apologize. I enjoyed looking at both pictures, especially the former which I remember seeing in service.

Kevin

One improvement would be to restore the broken links to photos in many of the articles in the archives section! Seems they are not working this evening.

MX

If a group is to grow or survive it needs to be built on strong principles. The tourist and preservation railroad worlds are a study of people’s passions not necessarily a study in academic records of historical facts and engineering technology which results in opinions being valued more than social (liberal arts type) history or engineering history. People with a lack of engineering backgrounds often do not understand the importance of the state of technology at the time their beloved Old Betsy was produced to when it was retired and how this technology and its subsequent advancement moved the human race forward. This is because we do not understand man’s social and technological limitations of the time our beloved Betsy was made. Too often people do not realize just what their pieces represent beyond their first impressions. Setting high standards based upon the triple museum mission to conserve, protect, and educate will guide this cause much farther than anything else.

The other misconception comes in what is preservation. Tourist railroads such as the Grand Canyon Railway have a business interest to protect. The railroad equipment they have are tools to make money and the alterations are done for the benefit of profitability. When you use the name museum you are implying that you are preserving something in an unaltered and protected state. A change for convenience and/or personal preference at a museum shows a lack of integrity of how the property is managed, yet on a tourist railroad it is nothing more than a business decision.

These personal integrity issues cause problems in the preservation of individual pieces of equipment which grows to the various levels of management. When management allows different personalities to run their organization based on their individual preferences instead of following basic preservation principles, it creates cliques that have a group consensus of what is right and wrong and it drives out other voices due to intolerance. This lack of dissention creates a stagnant environment for ideas and ultimately suppresses progress.

A form of this was seen at the Associations of Railroad Museums meeting in Ogden in 2004 when the interpretation discussion involved breaking the gathering into several groups and discussing what they wanted to know about interpretation. One person could not believe that we needed to know the definition of interpretation until other groups brought up that very issue. It appeared to several people that this person was more worried about self image than professional integrity. Putting yourself above your institution will do you and your institution harm in many measurable and immeasurable ways.

How we deal with the general public and donors is also a major part of the puzzle. If young and young at heart people begin to show interest in what and how something works you must spend the time to teach the same ABCs to each one, giving them time to develop on their schedule. Many people who enter our various organizations do not understand all of the issues that the preservation industry has to contend with. It is important for all of us to show them a high level of integrity so that these people can develop into a more rounded and encompassing preservationist. Bill Howes and I were discussing membership into the R&LHS (when I was on the board) and how one develops over time to appreciate various aspects of preservation. We often are attracted to some piece or type of equipment and think history started the day before we arrived. It is only over time that we might begin to appreciate other aspects of preservation. If not developing and respecting the positions and abilities of others we limit their role because of our biases and our own limitations. If we see a donor as only a source and not as a partner we risk alienating the very hand that feeds us as seen by Mr. Yagger’s recent post which limits the hand that feeds us in some way. Many people active in preservation for years have never posted on such a forum because they have better things to do with their time. If we do not realize that the community that we are apart of is bigger than this web site and the people who post then we further isolate our selves. Having a clique who dominate a particular web site or group only silences the masses and drives away the diversity a group needs for growth and vision.

If RYPN is to both survive and grow then the participants must grow and survive. No one persons view or biases must be tolerated above another due to personal preference. Logical reasoning must begin to govern all decisions made. Personal agendas must be set aside for the good of the cause. A number of years ago I discussed with you the idea of restarting a version of Robert Richardson’s Narrow Gauge News with the intention of focusing on tourist and preservation news in the west. You stated that you wanted me just focused on the Nevada Northern. Now I ask you will you be will to put the Nevada Northern aside to help the whole preservation industry? Ultimately the Nevada Northern will not survive if the preservation movement does not. If no one is able to grow then there will be no future railroad preservation and this forum.