I don't want to cast aspersions upon the fine folks at the VMT, but when I was there last August and met with Bev Fitzpatrick, I was left with the distinct impression that they barely have enough money to keep lights on in the place, let alone heat or phones. What computers they had were donated "boat anchors" running Windows 95. There are some serious roof leaks still from the storm that hit a while back.

Seriously, if even some of the money spent on the very nice Link Museum had made its way to VMT (not that it could have), we might be having a different discussion altogether.

Ok, I'll ask: If VMT doesn't have the resources to even patch the roof and can barely cover operating expenses, why would they choose to accept responsibility for acquiring and conserving these money-hungry artifacts? I can understand why, as costodians of all things N&W, they might feel compelled to help find a good home for them, but to commit to something that they know is impossible for them to carry out? Seems illogical to me. Perhaps somebody involved can explain how I am mistaken.

dave

What is VMT's relationship with NS like? I know that NS has been kind over the years with the NC Transportation museum in Spencer. Obviously they have given 1218 and 611 but is the relationship any deeper then that? NS CEO Wick Moorman has stated they want to help those who preserve the heritage of NS predecessors but only "responsible" caretakers. Has NS given a specific criteria, or is it a case of if you have to ask, you're not cutting it?

I would say on an optimistic note (quick! alert the news media! ADM4 is being optimistic!!!!) that, honestly speaking, it costs them next to nothing to try, to just say "don't scrap them, we'll try and take them". Had they not even tried, there would be folks moaning all over the rail forums "why didn't they try to save them?" every couple weeks after the locos were scrapped (another FAQ for our files).

Right now there is still opportunity. The fact that we are here talking about it, rather than just throwing up our hands and walking away, is in itself a good sign. Maybe, after another round of Roanoke Times articles, someone will make a generous donation or matching/challenge grant. The Museum could even play the media, so to speak, on the "sob story" of opportunity to save a miracle going to naught because of low funds--the old "no such thing as bad publicity" angle. Maybe someone will come up with a nice proposal along the lines of "I'll scrap two steamers and the diesels for the metal and move the other two steamers to the museum for you in trade." Maybe the North Carolina Transportation Museum will find money to get one. Maybe a Baldwin operator will find parts he needs and buy them off the diesel hulks as a legitimate business expenditure, giving the Museum some cash.

If that is the case, I would rename it the Virginia Casino and Gambling Emporium. Responsible preservation isn't publicity stunts done in hope of generating a favorable response. Who knows if a good home might have been found had VMT not taken the risk? Assuming in fact that Sandy is correct about their strategy, which does in fact have a certain logic about it if one willingly suspends disbelief.

I get a sense that VMT may have burned a few critical bridges with sources somewhere in the past that might be affecting the outcome?

Is anybody responsible ready to step up to the plate and acquire any of these if VMT should permit it?

dave

Do they still have their tenders?

Getting the word on the street is the key here. Even if they are only good for parts at least they are useful to someone. I hate the thought but sometimes it may best.

Propose a viable alternative. Right now the only one is automatic scrapping, which is also a PR nightmare for them even if they never took title. I see nobody else wanting these somewhat anomalous steamers, pretty distinctive to western Virginia and North Carolina. The West Va. guys have their hands full with their native 2-8-0's. I doubt we're going to find any city park or station museum with a burning desire to stuff a random steamer beside it in 2008. Absent the desire of some rich millionaire or the Strasburg/Ohio Central/Grand Canyon/WMSR to add to their fleet, where else are you gonna go?

I'm not privy to any management details of the VMT past or present, and even if there had been problems of any sort, that would be water under the bridge. One could conceivably make the case that they have not been as successful in PR and fundraising as they should have been. There are obviously big gobs of money being thrown about Roanoke (a huge art museum, the Goode Railwalk, the Link Museum, the Hotel Roanoke, etc.); the question would be, has the museum come to be seen as a failure, or are the folks with the money simply been passing by the museum in favor of the "flavor of the month," cushy golf courses, or what?

As to the tenders: As I recall, there are some tenders, but not enough to "go around"--I think one loco would end up minus tender, maybe two.

Did anybody think of directly asking the Norfolk Southern to become directly involved in their removal and storing them somewhere on their grounds or shops using their equipment and a consortium of volunteer employees and rail nuts?

Bernie Perch

Shouldn't forget the museum did manage to get the resources and donations and deals to move the steam era hoppers that were on that site.

Bob

Other groups of people you could appeal for volunteers more specifically in the post above would be the local unions. Some are quite generous with their time. When CNJ private car #98 was moved from Kempton to Minersville, PA, The trucking company and crane people had to be paid, but the Local Ironworkers donated all the time for rigging for the loading and unloading and other segments of the move. They put their banner on the observation end of the car to see clearly on the hour and a half move. Couldn't the Local Trackworkers be contacted to put in a temporary siding to bring in a heavy duty flatcar, and other railroad and non-railroad unions be spurred on to preserve their local heritage?

Bernie Perch

Forget the notion of NS donating space and having volunteers/train nuts assist. Not in this day of liability. If this was a real easy move, I could maybe, kind of seeing NS assist, but not for this complicated move.

As far as railroad unions - most out here could care less about history.

Everyone the 1218 and the 611 do not belong to the Virginia Museum of Transportation. They belong to the City of Roanoke, then Norfolk & Western now Norfolk Southern gave those two locomotives as well as all the other earlier equipment that started its display life in Wasena Park down by the Roanoke River in Roanoke in the 60's. After the devastating flood of 1985 that put everything in the museum at the time completely underwater and destroyed much of the early collections. In 1986 the Railroad donated the old Norfolk and Western Freight house and storage tracks to a new organization that was going to take over the collections of the Roanoke Transportation Museum, this new organization was the "Virginia Museum of Transportation". When the new Corporation took over the assets all but two pieces of equipment transferred to the Corporation the 611 and the 1218, their might be a couple more pieces that are still owned by the city but everything else belongs to the Museum Corp. and all the "New" equipment that has been added to the collection since 1986 belongs to the Corp. So long story short the Museum does not own the two "Crown jewels" of the collection.

Ok guys here is an update on the Lost Engines saga...This is from today's Roanoke Times Paper...Jan 17th 08

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/147327

Well I've been watching this topic with some amusement from the sidelines and fill that it's time to through in my 2cents...

I am a Roanoke Native and currently live in the Roanoke Valley. I am one of the few dedicated members of a small group that actually works on railroad equipment in Roanoke. I and my co-preservationist (As we like to believe) have climbed all over these engines over the years. We have a very candid and honest relationships with key players involved with this topic in Roanoke, the following are a couple:
Virginia Scrap Iron & Metal Company, (And what's now left of it)
The Virginia Museum of Transportation (...)
Norfolk Southern Corp (All the local guys, and some big wigs)
And each other. We have been keeping up with this topic for sometime and have been talking with the key players for years.

First off I don’t even know where to start on this as so many ideas and directions have been pitched over time and on these most recent postings. I’ll see what I can do and highly encourage anyone with a question that’s not addressed to ask on this list or PM me.

In the article printed today the NS spokes person says a lot but does not say No Way. Right now NS is very closely working with various railroad related preservation / history groups locally and has really stepped up with some great support and surprises that in the past could have never been imagined. From the Roanoke Chapter operating there own historic operational locomotives to the Roanoke Shops over NS’s mainlines for the shops 125 anniversary to numerous visits buy Wick Moorman to discuss preservation in detail and plans.

The collection of equipment (Lost Engines and related items) is as follows starting closest to the (NS) mainline, I’m not going to get into details on the unit numbers and classes as that’s been discussed before and readily available on the “Lost Engines: page.

(Two (2) Tenders) N&W (Norfolk and Western) These tenders were modified late in steam to be A-tanks, their sideboards were cut down as no coal would be hauled and the drawbars were removed and replaced with couplers and draft gear and modern handbrakes. These were just rolling tank cars and they are still on friction bearing triple axle trucks. The over all condition of these two tenders is fairly solid, with very little paint remaining.

(Two (2) Baldwin Diesels) These two diesels are unique in that they once belonged to the CW (Chesapeake Western) railway of which very little equipment remains. Both of these locomotives are fairly complete looking at them from the big picture, but when you start looking a them closer both cabs have been stripped of what ever could be carried off over the years and anything else of value either historical or scrap has been removed years ago from the electrical compartment or under the hood. But they both could be made into very fine static displays. Both units rest on friction bearing trucks and are structurally sound and solid, with very little paint remaining.

(One (1) Boom-tender) This car is a former N&W (Norfolk and Western) 40+ft flat with a large 10ftx10ft riveted square tank and what used to be air pumps attached. This car as well has friction bearing trucks and most of the wood deck has rotted away over the years, but the car is for the most part there with again very little paint left if any.

(Four (4) Steam Locomotives, less tenders) N&W (Norfolk and Western)

(1) The first steam locomotive encountered has been stored out side of the scrap yard complex fence over the years and surprisingly is the most “complete” and when I mean complete this locomotive still has its rods and valve gear attached. All other appliances are long gone this is a very stripped locomotive no air tanks no air compressors no nothing people have even removed the fire bricks over the years. Basically this locomotive is a relatively “complete frame with valve gear and “most” of the rods with a stripped boiler setting on top. The asbestos removal was completed a year or so ago and the jacketing and related material is now gone. Remember this one was out side the fence line and anything that could be carried away has been, but all the big stuff is there.
(2,3,4) The second, third and forth Locomotive’s have been stored inside the fence line for over 50 years and since they have been there most if not all the valve gear and mountings have been torched off most of the rods have been removed as well as anything else extending from the side of the frames and boilers. These three Locomotives are nothing more than axles under frames with stripped boilers sitting on top. One of the locomotives is missing the entire front end of the smoke box, not just the door but the whole front end. I think two more are missing the entire stack assemblies. All the Locomotives have the cab shells but little if anything else beyond that very little paint remains on the cabs, and the locomotives are raw metal everywhere else and have been for years.

A side from the equipment listed above, there is maybe what would equal a Gondola load of parts that was on the ground around the Locomotives that stayed where it fell when it was cut off, valve gear rods pumps and what not. A complete two axle lead truck and front pilot is still setting at the end of the line of locomotives representing all that’s left of the locomotive that it belonged to. The siding that all the equipment sets on has long since rotted away, yes the locomotives are setting on “Rails” but ties haven’t been seen in a very long time. All this equipment has been submerged in place by countless floods over the years as this scrap yard and the NS main lay beside the Roanoke River. Only once some 15 or 20 years ago the tenders I think were moved (slid, stuck bearings) by a bull dozer or two to uncover a broken water main that ran under the equipment and even then things were rough.

The current location of the equipment makes it difficult to address, NS is not interested in loading anything onto their mainline. But moving the equipment over their mainline say on flat cars is not out of the question. The equipment would need to be loaded on the flat cars on a siding than moved over the mainline to downtown where the museum is located this could be done. One of the current ideas being considered locally is to facilitate the use of one of two siding once operated by the feed mill next door. The feed mill recently vacated the site to a new location as part of the redevelopment of the area and left behind to active sidings next door to the scrap location. The thought is to move and re-align one or both mill tracks 75 or 100 feet from where they currently run parallel to the equipment and use these sidings to park the flat cars on for loading to transport as whole pieces. Now this is the most straight forward idea that’s been discussed locally but two major items need to be addressed the relocation or re-aligning of the current mill siding for use and the loading (and unloading) of the equipment at both ends of the move. Cost Cost Cost. It has been discussed as well what it would take to move the equipment (As whole) over the highway to the museum and weight and height restrictions come into play an various bridges and the city streets downtown. Moving the Locomotives for the most part is out of question, though the tenders, flat and “parts” most likely should be moved over the road, given there size and weight. As for breaking the equipment down to more manageable sizes to move means hauling the two Baldwin diesels minus trucks still dealing with some weight and large move over the road, involving still cranes and trucks to move the bodies and trucks. Likewise breaking the Steamers down to three major parts the Cabs the boilers and the wheeled frames make for more truck and crane work. Once again Cost Cost Cost but an idea requiring many more man hours of disassembly and re-assembly and craning and trucking.

The biggest stumbling block is that even though the Virginia Museum of Transportation accepted the equipment, as a whole the museum has no money to move them. And an update for anyone that doesn’t already know the Virginia Museum of Transportation is not “The Virginia Museum” of any thing. The museum has no affiliation to the state, they are a Corporation, The Virginia Museum of Transportation Inc. they get very little if any state funding after recent budget cuts for arts and museums state wide. And the visitor ship certainly doesn’t pay the bills. The Museum has a total of around 4 or 5 employees, and none of them are restorationest or maintenance personnel. You have the Director Bev. And three or four admin people, tickets and such. The museum currently has no one paid or on staff to address any of the equipment out side the building an it’s been like that for years. No restorations or preventative maintenance is currently underway. For years the museum has had the policy to accept volunteers but no one is to actually touch a piece of equipment, only white glove positions are available inside as assistance to the few employees they have empting trash or sweeping. The reason I mention these things is not to knock the museum, they have no money and no help, no volunteers to give you a better idea of what locally we are working with. Other then the Virginia Museum of Transportation there is the N&W Historical society, The Roanoke Chapter NRHS, The O’Winston Link Museum, and a couple of other smaller railroad groups that do there OWN things. Misgivings and hard feelings over the years (Before my time) have created rifts in the different groups and the Museum has found it’s self like it is today. The Volunteers who like to work on equipment either own their own (Like my self) or help out on the operating equipment that the Roanoke Chapter has, and if someone was interested in History and paper well they tended to drift to the N&W Historical archives, and the few volunteers that the Museum used to have moved to the O’Winston Link museum when it opened due in most part disagreements with past directors, and the long standing and ever growing museum board. The Virginia Museum of Transportation’s Board currently consist of close to 40 board members this for a museum that has a hard time paying it’s own payroll. Case in point the VMT recently sold the NKP 763 to raise funds unfortunately most if not all the funds have or will be spent on over head / operating cost and payroll. Not a red cent went to a new restoration project or preservation. This is the current condition of the museum, and this is why nothing has been done up till this point. These are facts

The Museum has no money to move on anything regarding the equipment. My friends and I have talked to the NS shop forces sent to look over the equipment (Lost engines) as these are the same guys we work with on our private cars and they said they really didn’t want to have to deal with the stuff it’s just so far gone to be a “Railroad Movement” at this point these items are Very large Metal sculptures that have a historical significance to the Roanoke Valley and the N&W and little more, Norfolk Southern really can’t provide more than to move the loaded flat cars with the items loaded from one location to another. I have heard that Norfolk Southern might consider helping re-align the mill sidings if they felt the rest of the plan would come together, cranes, crews (Volunteers) MONEY to name a few but for now it’s a waiting game. Norfolk Southern is willing to help but they cannot foot the entire bill, which is currently what’s been asked of them, and not very realistic.

The railroad groups in the Roanoke Valley have been splintered for many years and only just recently have the younger folks been trying to get everything to gel and for all to work together with a common goal, but presently there are to many agendas to address and not enough co-operations. Granted things are heading in the right direction now we are not there yet. I’m happy to say I’m a member of the “Next” younger generation that is helping to pull the groups together. We hope that over the next year we can share with you brighter news about the equipment but presently the money and local volunteers just are not here in quantity. And it all takes money, which is of short supply. Ideas are cheap moving on them cost Money!

The movement ideas listed above are not my own but are from different persons related to the effort that I’ve talked to. Some of the ideas I could see working depending on this or that, but it all comes down to money and man power, both of which are in little supply. One final note as said before by other posters PLEASE drop the idea of moving the equipment on any of there own wheels over the Norfolk Southern mainline it’s not going to happen. These cars and Locomotives are large fused chunks of Steel now after more than 50 years of neglect and many many dunking and soakings in the Roanoke River. The Steamers them selves have fused valve gear (What’s left of it) that will not move anytime soon, as well as all the friction bearings on ALL the equipment are no good. Remember nothing moves on the mainline and nothing rolls, if things have to come apart for movement more than likely they are not going back together, ever. As for the comment on the Hoppers being moved well that was a give me 1 of the 4 and I’ll move the other 3 by a local heavy hauler who is a rail-fan. Would he consider something like this for the Steamers maybe but right now all equipment is currently clamed and going to the Museum when things start to get tight (Time) this may change.

Please feel free to ask any questions about this equipment and topic, and if there is a question I didn’t answer please let me know and I’ll answer it or ask locally about it. Sorry for the Long Message and hope you made it this far!

Here's a thought, maybe contacting a Army reserve unit with heavy moving capabilities (like HET transporters, could carry broken down sections of the engines), or better yet a RR unit? I was an active duty Army officer a while back and I noticed that reserve units could often be counted on projects that put a good face on the reserve component, far in excess of the regulars. Most of them are in the reserve component and they often do high-profile missions that gets their names in the news. Here's a couple of RR units that could at least give some guidance and ideas: http://www.usarc.army.mil/1205thtrans/ http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 7trans.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 9trans.htm I know they're far away, but you never know. I know the Army easily has the lift and transport capacity to move items of this size. Make it worth their while and you never know. Just try to find a way to make this a good "training opportunity." Give them the idea that they can use this to determine if they can move large unfamiliar objects like maybe recovering stolen large statues from a unfriendly foreign power, something like that that. I've seen some pretty flimsy excuses in the past, for far less worthy causes.

Thank you for the suggestion, though we thought of contacting the US Army's Transportation Corp years ago, I'm sorry I didn't mention it. Here in Virginia We have not only Transportation Corp but also a Railroad Transportation Corp, at Fort Eustis in York Town VA. I've made a couple of trips in the past to visit Fort Eustis and talked with the Colonel (O6) in charge of there transportation museum that's on base in hopes he could talk with or put us in touch with the proper powers to be there on base for assistance in our request. I'll admit at this time I personally haven't pushed the issue any further as I was the only one locally pushing it as an option. We know of other groups who have used to Local Corp of Engineers to assist them in the movement of Passenger cars so we know it's in their book of things to do for needy groups. I guess I'll start stirring up the idea again and post on the details on where it goes. But P51 it is a good idea and one my fellow preservationist and I have thought of and started exploring sometime back.