Sadly, there are several pieces in the current collection that are suffering from potentially fatal neglect. The Wabash E unit comes to mind. I was involved with an effort to possibly take another piece from the collection that does not relate to anything in the area, but at this point the only deals we could do were strictly for cash - and not fire sale prices either!

Am I correct in assuming that having anything occupying the main for more than a brief interval is the essential difficulty with moving on rail on heavy flatcars, and that the main is the track adjacent to the scrapyard? Otherwise, seems like a basis for a workable plan.

dave

I'm not the one who insinuated they should be moved by rail. The original poster is the one who apparently believed (and raised a worthwhile question, if you ask me) that it might be more cost-effective to roll the locos to the VMT on their own wheels than to crane/dismantle/truck them. I certainly don't have exact numbers here, but my best guesstimate is that it's possibly a draw between comparing the two options. And remember that we're supposedly dealing with SEVERAL steamers and two diesels. Unless one or more is sacrificed for scrap at the site, you're multiplying the original dilemma by severalfold, but gaining the economy of setting up cranes once for several moves--maybe.

The fact STILL remains that, absent a "sugar daddy: of sorts (Hey, does the Ohio Central or Grand Canyon want another long-term project in reserve? hello? Hello????), it's a long-term project with at least something getting scrapped at best, and a total loss at worst.

Perhaps the solution to preserving the locomotives is to simply offer them to any qualified organization that will acquire and move those in which they have interest? Furthermore, plenty of steam locomotives where moved by donated services in the 50's. Don't be too certain those altruistic folks aren't still out there. For my part, sacrificing one or more steam locomotives in order to save steam locomotives is untenable. There have to be mulitple ways to work this problem.

Having talked with Mr. Fitzpatrick at the VMT back when 763 was rolled out of town, I have no doubt that if someone were to approach the VMT with cash to secure one of these locos--or even an in-kind grant, as in "we'll bring our cranes"--then the VMT would listen realistically.

Now comes the hard part: Find someone else that actually WANTS one of those locos badly enough.

[the all-too-familiar sound of crickets chirping or snowflakes falling.....]

Alex,
You hit the nail on the head. We have to have several questions answered before we can make a decision on the future of these locomotives.

To start with:
1. Who really owns the locomotives? Did the VMT take ownership?
2. What are their plans?
3. Are there other museums looking maybe to get one?
Alex, I've been contacted by a tourist line in your state about 385. I lost the name when my profile got dumped. Do you know who that might be. Do they have the cash to fix one?

Next:
1. A complete inspection of the locomotives needs to be completed. What parts are there and what is missing?
2. Can we really tow the locomotives?
a. Are the wheels able to move and survive the move to VMT?
3. What is NS stand on using the main line.
a. Is there a time when the line is not being used where the tow wouldn't interupt their operation? Late night move?
b. Planned down time for service work?
c. Are they ok with a tow on their lines? Who will do the tow?
4. Does VMT have the room for them?

Now this is not all inclusion but its a start. I feel that with these questions answered a plan can start to be put together and start looking at moving the engines.

Hello Alexander,

Unfortunatly the sound of snow falling and chirping crickets is an all too common occurance.

Other than a small segment of the comunity, preservation of our railroad heritage - be it a massive locomotive or obscure turntable simply does not generate "passion" i.e. interest with John Q. Public.

Why is this so?
Looking back (well before my time) railroads played an esential roll in everyday American life. We traveled on them, we saw them in action day to day, livelyhoods depended upon them and the many good we consumed were transported on them. In addition look at the adverts and artwork from the golden age - many were dramatic and evoked images of granduer, power, speed and life beyond the small rural farm.

Those images are gone today. Railroads today are almost like the complex comunication systems and sanatation systems under our citys - out of site, out of mind. In fact its almost sterile

Today, we are trying to generate support from 2 generations of people who - the vast majority have had limited to no contact with railroading.

When was the last time you heard a person born in the 60's seventies let alone more recently say "WOW LOOK AT THAT DIESEL" or look forward to a modern container train to blow by with anticipation and excitement.

When we worked on the MEC 501 we were lucky if two volunteers showed up on site at any one time. If anyone visiting asked about the work we were doing it was the older generation who remembered these stream and smoke belching monsters when they took them to war or thier honymoon. It was if we were invisible to the younger folks.

Contrast this with our work on the EL&WB locomotives. We had to turn volunteers away and the group doing the work was much younger on average and generally were not passionate about railorad preservation.
However they were highly motivated and dedicated.

In the end it wasn't the locomotives or history that drew them in. It was were they where working and the adventure of it all. The whole project offered a unique experience versus the 501 which, even though it offered the unique expereince of working on a steam locomotve, was not considered uniquye enough to incite interest.

Again.... we need to think out of the box and try to regain this adventure, passion and interest OUTSIDE OF THE PRESERVATION COMUNITY. It can be done. Witness the Maine Narrow Gauge Mueseum when it aquired and moved the collection from Edaville - again it was a volunteer effort that offered a unique experience and skillfully tugged at the heart strings of the average Mainer's sense of pride and accomplishment.

Remember its about publicity and public perception as much as the actual preservation itself.

Don't let the crickets and snow drown out the sound of grinders and rivit guns.

Will somebody please take the concept of hauling these poor old hulks on their own wheels out of the scrapyard out and shoot it before it does more damage? Without a very large amount of work and uncanny luck in current condition, not a mechanically viable option.

dave

I'm now guessing that someone at the Roanoke Times is readong this Interchange forum:

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/147327

This article seems to answer all our speculation, with answers right from "the Thoroughbred's" mouths.

Hmmmmm.......... I went and looked at the website photos. Seems to be rails underneath at least 1118. Looks like Alex you are correct in saying NS won't touch it until the plan is in place and they give it their stamp of approval, makes sense.
Dave just looking at options here. Again I'm no expert and without looking with my own eyes I wouldn't say towing them is the best option.
If craning is the best option then it would most likely be a two lift:
Lift them close to the rails and like I said then during a convenient time for NS to allow flat cars to come in and then lift again to the cars.

Or move them over land. But that's going to be more work at the site.
Gain access to the site
Ground prep for the truck/trailer
Obstacles that the engines may not clear----move them or dismantle the engines to clear.
Road closures.

Dave,

I agree with you. Break them down and truck them.

Item 1 Asbestos removal (remember they want to re-develop this site. Use it as leverage for funding asbestos abatement on the locomotives. I.e the developer helps with cost or they get stuck with the whole bill if you walk away)

Some Items needed are:

I beams & Misc. angles & plate

Hardwood blocking

100 ton capacity Hyd. Jacks (4 min.) w/ power pack
and manifold (we powered ours from a local bridge builder)

Chains

Air tools

Rail (temp panel)

A nice big Catapiller would be nice.

Run I-beams under boiler weld stops to prevent rolling

Detach boiler w/ cab from frame at Supports & saddle

Raise to clear on cribwork

Drag frame from beneath

Back low bed in and lower (haul-off) (note remove cab if required)

Lay I-Beam in saddles & bind up truck & drivers

Jack clear of soil

Work Temp panel track under drivers

Assemble panel track onto low bed (grease real well)

Pull frame onto lowbed & remove from site (This is were the Cat comes in handy)

Repeat until all locomotives are removed.


Low equipment cost - high manpower need. Remember manpower is cheaper than equipment.

If you doubt the greased rail scenario please take this into consideration:
We slid EL&WB No. 2 nearly 2 ft. sideways using greased plates and jacks. This wasn't broken down but complete all 188,00 pound of her. In fact we thought it might not stop sliding at one point.

T.

Who owns the engines? I see conflicting reports.

From the article:

The Roanoke Redevelopment and Housing Authority is considering whether it will purchase the spot. The authority has not released any information about what it would do with the engines, if anything.

If a redeveloping authority purchases the land, I would assume they would want to redevelop it. Kind of hard to develop land with hulks of engines sitting on it. Engines with asbestos jacketing of all things. So unless you can convince them that their new development should feature a RR heritage park complete with several engines, I would almost expect an ultimatum. (the move it in 90 days or they will be scrapped sort of thing).

Not what we want to think - but perhaps a plan B should be looked upon? How much would xxx amount of scrap metal be worth? Can good come out of bad? This may become a textbook case in preservation choices.

AF and Terry, I'm with you and have posted so on this subject in the past. I asked why the siding couldn't be laid down again between the yard and the main without actually connected to the main. The photos I saw looked like there was plenty of room to do so. Now with the locos out of the yard per the new owners orders, they could be made rail ready (or at least rollable) and then a plan to move them could be formulated.

Then there was the show on mega movers, IIRC, where they moved a loco from one area to another by using two sticks of rail. They put one in front of the one it was sitting on, rolled the engine onto the other stick, then drug the first one around and repeated the process over again. They had to turn the loco so they pushed on one end of the stick while pulling on the other.

So as the saying goes, where there is a will there are heirs! No wait, wrong will. Where there's a will, there's a way! Yea, that's the one!

But the biggest problem is finding the volunteers to do this. While I have been in VA many times, it isn't close enough to go on a weekend to play with trains.

I think that the key to accomplishing this is to talk to the right people, like heavy haulers and movers who have had a good year and need a tax write of for the year. Yea, they're out there, but you gotta find them. And once found, you need someone that can talk to them.

AF. Are you stationed at Maguire AFB?

Later!
Mr. Ed

Mr Ed, you got it. McGuire. KC-10 Crew Chief.

I still can't believe anyone from the VMT has chimed in yet on this!

VMT is pretty much totally "disconnected" from the rail preservation community, and for that matter, the rest of the local non-profit community. I doubt that anyone "officially" involved with the Museum is even aware of RYPN's existence. If the predicted bad weather for tomorrow shows up, I'll try to post some more info and commments, unless Steve beats me to it. Physically speaking, I'm closer to this issue than anyone on this board, I live 1 1/2 mi from VMT and 2 mi from the scrapyard.