1320, a 3-cylinder Webb Compound was purchased by Pennsy from the U.K. in 1889. As received it had Joy's valve gear on the rear and front cylinders.
At some time after receipt, two major modifications occurred which I have been unable to pin down.
1. The front cylinder (lp) valve gear was changed to a "slip eccentric." Can anyone provide the date? (Year is good enough)
2. The British cab survived for a while before a larger American cab replaced it. Again, any idea when this occurred? Also, while photos and drawings exist with the British cab, are ther photos or drawings or both showing the 1320 with the American cab?

TIA for your help.

hankmorris@earthlink.net

I cannot provide more information but it saounds like an interesting locomotive. I had no idea that slip eccentrics were every used on full sized locomotives. Seems like the setup you desribe would be just about the only way it could work.

Roger

> 1320, a 3-cylinder Webb Compound was
> purchased by Pennsy from the U.K. in 1889.
> As received it had Joy's valve gear on the
> rear and front cylinders.
> At some time after receipt, two major
> modifications occurred which I have been
> unable to pin down.
> 1. The front cylinder (lp) valve gear was
> changed to a "slip eccentric." Can
> anyone provide the date? (Year is good
> enough)
> 2. The British cab survived for a while
> before a larger American cab replaced it.
> Again, any idea when this occurred? Also,
> while photos and drawings exist with the
> British cab, are ther photos or drawings or
> both showing the 1320 with the American cab?

> TIA for your help.


Belpaire@aol.com

I purchased an odd little paperback from a British fan press several years ago that identifies some of the more significant locomotives from around the world. I can't say that it's the most reliable source that ever seen but it does to an extent describe the British version of the Webb compound. I recall it in part because of the slip eccentric used on the LP axle. It seems much more likely that Pensy received it with the slip eccentric, and changed it to Joy's valve gear. It was an odd arrangement since the two driving axles were not coupled. (Not in itself all that unusual if one considers Mallets, Garrats, and duplexes.) Apparently they had problems from time to time as there was a particular state where you could potentially have the HP drivers running one direction and the LP running the other. Not a tenable situation at all. It was not very successful, but since (Francis?) Webb was the mechanical foreman for the road, (Great Western?) a number of them were put in service anyway. It must be a relatively famous little beast as Sid Meyer incorporated it into his game many years ago, (if any of you remember that.) I can look into the specifics, but I suspect that a typical British steam head could answer any questions regarding at least the valve gear as applied fairly readily.

david_ackerman@yahoo.com

In fact, the locomotive was built with Joy's valve gear on all cylinders. The slip eccentric had not yet been applied to any UK locos.
The Railroad Gazette description of the initial operation proves the cylinders were under the control of Joy's.
However, there's a lot of discussion on both sides of the big pond about whether the 1320 was converted later to the slip eccentric, or not.
I've been corresponding with a published expert in the UK about this topic. Since the conversion, if it took place, happened on this side, he isn't sure whether it happened or not from his perspective. Nothing in Railroad Gazette confirms that such a conversion took place. Yet, other references indicate that it probably did.
I'm trying, albeit unsuccessfully so far, to establish whether the 1320 had a slip eccentric or not. I've gotten nowhere on the various PRR-oriented forums, so I elected to try here. The folks who hang out here are some of the sharpest around and I've always struck gold here. Maybe this plea will reach responsive ears.

hankmorris@earthlink.net

David's comments made me realize that this locomotive is mentioned on page 56 of the book "The Great Book of Trains", published by Salamander Press.

It was the second batch of the Web Compound 2-2-2-0 engines built by Crewe Works for the London & North Western Railway (LNWR) in 1889. Known as the Teutonic class, the Joy's valve gear was replaced by a "slip eccentric". It was this change that caused the locomotive to be in a state where, having backed the locomotive onto the train, the slip eccentric would remain in reverse, while the H.P. cylinder was set for forward motion. It was thought (hoped?) that the two high-pressure cylinders would taken in steam first and move the train. By the time it had moved forward half-a-revolution of the driving wheels the inside slip eccentrics would hav moved round into the forward position; therefore, when the first puff of steam exhausted from the a high pressure cylinder into the low, off it would go.

However, if the engine slipped, or spun it's rear wheels, the wheels with the L.P. eccentrics did not move, the eccentrics remained in reverse, and it's wheels would spin in opposite directions! The picture in the book shows a Webb compound being given an initial starting motion with a pinch bar. It's single low pressure cylinder is also clearly visible.

Quoting the book further, once they got going, they were good locomotives, and kept good time through the 1890s. However, they were no match for the non-compound two-cylinder 2-4-0s. One of these, "Hardwicke", survives and is pictured on my "Surviving World Steam Locomotive" CD-ROM.

Axle Load: 35,000 lbs
Cylinders, HP: (2) 14 x 24in
Cylinders, LP: (1) 30 x 24in
Driving Wheels: 85in
Heating Surface: 1,402sq ft
Steam pressure: 175psi
Grate area: 20.5sq ft
Adhesive weight: 69,500lbs
Total weight: 158,000lbs
Length overall: 51ft 0 1/4in.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

Surviving World Steam Locomotives
james1@pernet.net

I appologize. I misrecalled the information in my humble source, thinking that a late class of Webb compouds was the original and only class. The class in question was built with the slip eccentrics, but as noted, it was a late arrival, and not the original. My appologies. Odd little locomotives, in any case.

david_ackerman@yahoo.com